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Comments:
<0> anyone awake in here?
<1> nope
<2> half
<0> i'm scheduled to attend a breakfast meeting with some of the most powerful businessmen in Las Vegas this morning...the topic: Why we cannot produce more tech-savvy graduates...anyone want to give me some information which I would be able to p*** along?
<3> yes
<3> dogbert2: total, and complete disconnect of academia and the real world.
<3> dogbert2: I've seen universities where ROI is never mentioned across the entire curriculum
<0> siglite...ok...i'll buy that (though it's NOT all academia's fault)...what else
<1> security
<3> dogbert2: security is huge. Academia has a complete head-in-sand view of it
<0> K_F, heh...that's not something you'd find in most programs (I've guest lectured in security at our local univ) :)
<0> i'd agree also...
<3> dogbert2: I had 400 level students that could not subnet.
<1> social security
<1> not program security
<1> the most skilled techies "works out of a garage"
<0> K_F, lack of employment opportunities and internships, rather than try to grab the cheapest talent they could find?
<1> many opt other ways, generally mathemathics and going into finance
<1> s/finance/insurance
<3> dogbert2: IMO, the largest problem with academia is this as follows
<0> K_F...ayup...
<1> dogbert2: and sponsorships / donations on projects
<3> dogbert2: the only graduates worth hiring are those that actually worked for the univerisity running network systems. All others completely lack any practical application of any skills.
<3> dogbert2: universities focus on practical application of programming skills, but ZERO practical application of networking or security skills
<0> siglite, that's true also...at our univ, there is one course which specifically deals with computer networks where students actually have to learn that ****...
<3> dogbert2: they make them write programs, why don't they make them interoperate network devices?
<0> of course, I had no less than 4-5 courses on it when I got my ***ociates
<3> dogbert2: yeah, every one of my students had multiple networking prerequisites.
<0> you guys wanna read the URL which started this?
<0> http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/May-23-Tue-2006/news/7551608.html
<3> dogbert2: none of them had every done anything practical with it.
<0> siglite...unlike myself and ph33r machines
<1> disclaimer: I'm a suit
<3> dogbert2: right, because you went above and beyond the call
<0> K_F :)
<3> dogbert2: and the only students worth a **** are the ones that did that.
<1> I don't have ANY formal education within computers whatsoever
<1> and I'm proud of it
<3> dogbert2: the "average" graduate is completely un-useable in networking/security
<0> siglite, a LOT of students got INTO this field for the WRONG reason, IMO
<4> dunno what that stuff looks like in the US. I'm studying network engineering here and we are supposed to have a practical semester at some companies.. those being infineon, siemens etc.
<4> it's an university of applied sciences though.
<3> dogbert2: another problem is that academia reacts too slowly to technology changes. I bet there are unis out there still teaching vb6.
<0> yoz...not a bad idea either
<4> dogbert2: it really helps.. though you'll ned companies which accept that.. and that's the difficult part
<0> siglite, actually, if you can teach the concepts and ONE good language, a decent graduate can learn a new language...
<3> dogbert2: professors don't want to learn new technology. They have thier hammer, so they want thier students to all be nails.
<1> siglite: which is why unis should focus more on principles
<1> general understanding, rather than practical implementation
<1> as its primary focus anyways..
<3> K_F: that's all find and dandy. Until thier resume shows up on my desk, and I don't see a language that's been used since 1999.
<4> dogbert2: but basically doing that before graduating is much of improvement.. most people get hired by those companies they did their practical semester at.
<0> siglite, when they opened up courses in security here, I took one...I already knew everything in the course from learning it myself, except database security...
<3> I mean, you're asking for reasons, and I'm a guy that makes hiring decisions. And those are them.
<0> siglite, i'm a decent C programmer, though I've only coded snort **** in the last 3 years :)
<1> dogbert2: database security? focus on sql injections, or?
<3> injection, authentication schemes, roles etc...
<0> K_F...securely updating databases, two phase updates, etc...
<1> in other words the whole schebang, thankfully they start having cl***es on that
<1> way to many ****ty schemes around
<0> K_F...we didn't HAVE cl***es like that prior to spring of 2005, btw
<1> yeah, it is a shame
<0> of course, another complaint I often hear is a lack of critical thinking and analysis, and lack of writing skills as well...sheesh
<1> that is generic
<0> also, teenagers are NOT stupid, if they have a perception that they won't be able to find a JOB in a field, why go into that field in the first place...
<1> heck, people believes what is in the tabloids
<1> and teenagers ARE ****ing stupid
<1> actually 84% of the general population are..
<0> K_F...i've seen people who have written a masters thesis which had spelling and grammatical errors in them :)
<1> dogbert2: hehe, wait till you see mine :p
<1> I have to improve my English grammar, thats for sure. My vocabulary is half-decent.
<5> Borg Institute of Technology?
<1> huh?
<0> K_F...it's NOT impossible to run a resume through a spell-checker and grammar checker, and then read it to see how well it flows...
<5> siglite: there are unis out there that still use Vaxen.
<1> dogbert2: oh, absolutely
<1> dogbert2: and having someone else read it
<0> Ka-bar...VAXen is a fine machine :), esp. if it does BSD :)
<1> that is quite powerful, work too long on something and you know what it says, so you don't see errors
<1> and your mind fills in the blanks if something is missing
<1> so you HAVE to get a peer review
<6> depends on the field.
<1> NineVolt: no, it doesn't
<6> in programming, yes.
<1> cambridge studies..
<5> When /me was in school, oh so many years ago, they taught us the principles of computer science, not how to program in $language
<1> as long as the first and last letter of the word matches, and the rest of the characters are in there, in some order
<6> good thing i interned for nasa then :P
<5> All the languages I use now I have picked up along the way. I haven't touched Fortran or CDC ***embler in *ages*
<7> CDC Cyber?
<0> fortran and comp***...a fine pair :)
<0> <--- used to work for CDC
<5> NineVolt: why were you banned on #perl?
<5> dogbert2: Yeah. Sheesh. You'd think that someone working on a masters would at least be able to use a ****ing spellchecker...
<0> Ka-bar...ayup
<5> K_F: Sadly, your English vocabulary and grammar are probably better than at least 75% of high school graduates in the US.
<0> Ka-Bar...heh
<8> mornin DB2
<0> hafta attend breakfast roundtable this morning...topic...Businesses Lament fact they cannot find tech-savvy workers
<8> topic at my roundtable meeting is going to start with the usual 'scrambled or fried' egg debate, then move onto 'how to get the other employee to get his act together and learn the meaning of 'job completion''
<1> geeks are generally frowned upon in society at large
<0> Steakk...bwhahaha
<0> K_F, of course they are...
<8> db2: i like the weekly meetings though...get a freee 5 star breakfast :)
<1> get chicks to dig geeks and you get more geeks
<1> ReBeLuTz: don't
<0> steakk...an interesting side note...the best compensated workers in Vegas (Hotel/Casino CEO's), not geeks
<8> labest compensated workers in MKE WI, Not me.
<8> best*
<0> yeah...I know :)
<0> <--- has a friend who is a sonography tech., she makes probably 40K a year, works day shift, helps patients, and doesn't get calls at home, silly support calls, etc...all with a 2 year degree and certification
<0> Steakk...don't bother...this place ****s for IT (IMO)...
<8> Welp, off to the table-o-death for breakfast
<0> heh..."Got Steak?"
<8> nice thing is that I am takin the rest of the day today (after meeting), and tomrrow, plus the weekend off of work
<10> dogbert2: Umm... I work as a systems engineer for a high performance computing center, make >50k a year, have no degree, no certifications, work day shift, and don't get calls at home.
<8> bbil
<0> funky...see yas...
<8> bbl*
<0> Wells, you are the exception, rather than the rule...remember, I didn't have a degree prior to fall of 2002 :)
<10> dogbert2: True. And I am working on a degree, particularly since I work at a university. Kind of stupid not to.
<0> Wells, i'm sure you don't pay full tuition rates either :)
<11> hmm
<10> dogbert2: At the moment I don't pay any, thank you GI Bill... :)
<10> dogbert2: Once that runs out, the state will pay for up to six credit hours a semester.
<0> Wells, most univ employees (actual staff) pay low rates for tuition
<5> dogbert2: Yeah, worked on a CDC Cyber 76x-something, writing Fortran and COMP***.... Oh.... about 25 years or so ago.
<0> Ka-bar...I used to be a FE for Control Data (1988-1990)
<5> dogbert2: wtf? What about tech-savvy workers lament fact that there aren't any ****ing jobs out there?
<11> hmm
<11> Wait, already said that.
<0> CDC 730/830, etc
<0> Ka-Bar...well, they wrote the article, i'll find out for myself in about 2h 10m...
<5> dogbert2: got an IM from a friend at Sun yesterday. She told me that Sun announced yesterday that they're laying off about 5K people this summer.
<0> ayup, Ka-bar...announcements LIKE that doesn't help anyone who MIGHT be considering a career in IT
<5> ReBeLuTz: good for you. Now lose the lame away message
<11> Based on the two certanties of life, I chose the taxes option. Solid work ;)
<11> er, certainties
<0> heh, Nanuq
<11> I should moonlight as an undertaker, and cover both
<12> Ka-bar: someone is lagging ;)
<11> heya Lion-O
<11> oh yeah, SO, lessie
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