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Comments:
<0> I watched a video a while back demonstrating a java debugger that can step statements backwards... anyone heard of this?
<1> devrjason: Yes
<0> What can you tell me about it Bryin?
<1> It's called Reverse Execution
<1> or more completely "Reverse Execution of Java Bytecode"
<1> http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Reverse+Execution+of+Java+Bytecode
<0> I am skeptical of it.. the video demonstration looked good enough, but I'm not so sure how it would fair in the real world
<0> If it is as good as it would appear, why isn't there any similar implementations in other languages? I'm not sure it would be all that useful
<2> that sounds like something Omnicore were doing - you had to use their special compiler thou
<2> rolling back the stack and rerunning code can be done in lisp, smalltalk, and other virtual machine based languages, much much harder in static, non-vm languages thou
<2> its very usefull when trying to debug stuff, rollback the stack, change a bit of code, continue running with fixed code
<2> 'lo Bryin
<1> kia ora talios
<0> You can do that?
<2> in smalltalk you can
<0> What makes it so much easier to do with VM code?
<2> not all VMs are alike - but mostly the abilities to modify running code on the fly (much like scripting languages), and just being able to do more things in a dynamic fashion
<2> you could do the same thing with C/C++, its just most VM systems make it alot simpler to do
<0> Can you do it easily with a Java program?
<0> I suppose you need some special tool
<2> to a degree. You end up messing with cl*** loaders, and/or a broken hot-swap implementation
<2> with javs hotswap you can dynamically update a cl*** with new code, but ONLY if you don't add/remove methods, change method signatures... kinda makes it near useless
<0> When I studied Java, I found it interesting but not so practical for most stuff I do (mostly because it doesn't translate into native binaries)
<2> why does native matter?
<0> Because all the hardware I ever get is third hand and thusly slow and relatively powerless :(
<2> so thats more pointing out you have crap hardware. either way - you could still have c++ that performed badly as well
<0> I could indeed, but a VM is just one more unnecessary step that I could eliminate
<2> so is libc6 - we could abandon that and just use ***embly
<0> ahhh :)
<2> even c/c++ isn't "native"
<0> hm?
<0> Native code is derived from it
<2> native to what thou? if I run a c compiled application inside a VMWare session - is it still native?
<0> Native to the processor that's running the code
<2> and inside the vmware machine - that processor is virtual.
<2> so the code is native, but the machine is not. which means - its not really native is it?
<2> just like if you have some 368 code running on P4 - if the P4 kicks in 368 compatibility mode, its translating on the fly to newer instruction sets.
<0> there is a difference between native code and native execution
<2> (well that might be bollocks actually;p)
<0> Native execution is the condition that has a large factor on speed, but only native code can be executed natively
<2> but native code is defined by what the execution environment is
<2> if I put in a CPU that natively does java, then java code is now executed natively, does that mean the cl*** files are now magically native code?
<0> Not that a VM isn't a good idea, I think it is, but I don't need it for most the things I do
<0> Yeah I think it does talios
<2> but that exact same cl*** can be run on a system that DOESNT do native java execution, which would means it NOT native code...
<0> It is native to the VM, not to the machine, except if the machine itself effectivly acts as the VM
<0> Is there such a machine that runs Java natively?
<2> theres several cpus that do
<0> Who makes them?
<0> If I had a machine that did, it would make a lot more sense and I might write Java code... but I don't
<0> I tend to write for the environment I am working on
<2> not sure off hand - they're rather specialized cpus thou
<0> I don't dislike Java as a language, Java applets scare me though
<2> applets scare everyone
<0> The other day I ran an applet, and the VM wouldn't go away after the applet ended o_o
<0> One person said that working with Java is like "writting english with half a keyboard" ... I'm not sure I understood that
<0> Do you think people hate Java just because it uses a VM?
<3> I think most people who "hate" it simply don't understand it.
<2> that comments sounds in references to how hard java makes things, in comparision to say ruby, smalltalk, python
<2> i'd say they hate it cause they've only used older-swing apps or applets, which were slow, painfull, and ugly.
<0> I'ved used Java before and it didn't hinder me noticeably
<2> Microsoft did alot to screw over java as well
<0> Yes I heard that Microsoft promised full support for Java and then changed critical elements and double crossed Sun
<2> one of the main pet-hates I have with java compared to smalltalk is that with anonymous inner cl***es, variables in the outter cl*** need to be final.
<2> makes it quite painfully annoying to use anonymous inners alot.
<0> Anonymous inner cl***es? My Java book doesn't mention that.. but it only covers 1.1. Is that something with version 2?
<2> probably - if you're reading a book on java 1.1 I'd throw it out right now.
<2> thats like 10 years old
<0> Not reading, read. Way back when I studied it
<0> a long time ago
<0> "Core Java 1.1" Sunsoft Press.. was gathering dust until 15 minutes ago
<0> How do I tell what virtual machine I have?
<0> talios how do I tell what virtual machine I have?
<2> java -version
<0> "1.5.0_06" Java 2 runtime. Interesting. Version 1.5, Java 2 ? o_o
<0> If there intent was to make that confusing, they have succeeded
<2> the Jave2 naming is now dropped, and its officially Java 5
<2> they also dropped the 1.
<0> wah
<0> so they skip the whole development process that goes with versioning and just rename Java 2 to Java 5? lol
<2> well, no - there was Java2 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5. So there were 5 major releases, they just fixed their version naming
<2> and make it clear it was "java 5"
<0> Wait, then the number after the dot is the major revision and not the minor one? o_o
<2> yep ;0
<0> Which version did M$ enter the scene with
<2> 1.1
<0> doh x_x
<0> I've tried to convince my co-workers that it might be good to produce some Java for some reason or another, but they are heavily against me
<2> there were also point releases like 1.4.1 1.4.2 which they're no longer doing, rather releasing the occasional patch release (like your 1.5.0_06, which is the 6th release in the 1.5 series), the next major release will be Java 6, which has had two beta releases out already, as well as weekly builds
<2> I would be to if you said "for some reason or another"
<0> Well I never say it like that
<0> I've found a few specific solutions that might be done in Java, like for real time displays on web pages
<0> A Java applet has got to be better than an AJAX solution for that
<0> It seems to me anyway
<0> idk :/
<0> talios do you think a real time display would be better done with a Java applet than with AJAX?
<2> dunno - I have one ajax heavy app that seems to cause firefox to leak like a siv and die.
<0> The latest firefox does that?
<2> so thats one against long running, high-updating ajax for now
<2> well I'm thinking its the ajax - 5-6 fields updating content every 5 seconds, after 4-5 hours firefox is taking up 800mb of ram and swapping like hell
<0> Maybe you are creating new objects instead of reusing existing ones?
<0> If you do want to create new objects you should delete them when you are done
<2> its possibly a bug in the wicket framework, i've not delved into how their ajax is implemented yet
<0> talios is that particular AJAX page public anywhere?
<2> not currently no
<0> My whole job is centered around AJAX ... Not sure if that's a good or bad thing, but it's a relief to work with other languages when I can
<4> other than ?
<5> AJAX isn't a language as far as i know
<4> no
<0> other languages than javascript I meant
<4> I thought it a framework in java, but never looked hard at it
<4> javascript isn't a language as such either
<2> er - javascript is.
<4> imo loosely
<4> but I guess technically the scripting languages are
<2> just as loose as ruby. ecmascript is spec'd quite well
<5> calchas; there is AJAX farmeworks in java as inmany other languages
<4> k
<5> if you get the point of ajax you can build your own it's just a buzz of words
<5> in fact it's too simple
<0> When I think AJAX I tend to think about the Javascript since when I use that style it's mostly Javascript I write
<5> welle there is both client side (js) and server side (java servlets) involved in the dialog
<0> I usualy use PHP for my server side
<4> btw hi talios
<2> 'lo :)
<2> mmm, i think its time for some food
<4> should be here too
<5> devrjason; besides all the marketing arroun php it's really laggin far behind java/j2ee
<5> and trying to get throw it's bad original design
<0> You think PHP is designed bad? How so?
<5> aw
<5> i've worked alot with php
<0> and?
<5> can you explain why to move from purlly interpretet script to byte code ons?
<0> I don't understand
<5> how can you handel a distrubuted application speclailly the session handling when your script run over a clustered server?
<5> some hacks put the session in db
<0> By externalizing the session data
<5> welle are you willing to do sql request each time you need to get a session variable?
<0> I don't think it's ever a good idea to rely on the server itself remembering any session data but the session ID and IP anyway
<6> Da0: see if your server has support for clustering
<6> Da0: but you generally want stick sessions, so you don't have to replicate much
<6> sticky
<5> LLyric; we are discussion the cons of php server side model
<6> Oops, ***umed Java, given #java :)
<5> vs the j2ee model
<5> =)))
<4> very true
<5> well now that the php community has come with php5 they are turning to implement java/j2ee patterns
<5> the only thing that has made php so used is that you can get some CMS change the html template and in 1 day you have a working website
<0> I wouldn't say 'only'. PHP has advantages, like being a loosely typed language and being easily run from the command line
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