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Comments:
<0> A cause, by definition always has some effect(s)
<0> Nothing else is germane to your question
<1> a cause always causes something to happen - that's where the effect comes in, it's what happened
<2> So then, no matter what we do or think, it has a *cause.* It has been determined by other causes and effects.
<1> if nothing happened, then there was no cause
<0> +wholly
<1> yes - it's been caused by every cause and effect predating it
<0> Pretty much everyone thinks that our actions or thoughts have causes
<0> Determinists think that they are only the sum of their causes
<2> Our particular view of cause and effect has to do with elapsed time. But considering the nature of causation, even all points in time have already been predetermined, right?
<2> Since no cause is without effect.
<0> According to determinism
<1> I don't think that some magical being or 'soul' that decides that my arm is going to move and therefore it 'tells my brain to move my arm' - I believe the whole process is completely contained and can be explained in the physical world
<2> So in a sense, our entire "existence" from birth to death, from a 4d point of view, is like a single body.
<0> All of existence is like that, to a determinist
<2> Does any effect ever arise without a cause?
<0> To a determinist, no
<1> eh? I just believe the entire universe exists, and can be explained quite seamlessly and elegantly: cause, then effect, forever and always, without exception
<2> To anyone?
<0> Even the birth of the universe would have a cause
<2> Right.
<0> If in fact the universe had a birth
<1> yes Lateralus - those that believe in free will believe that their thoughts are without cause
<2> That's the real question.
<0> +at least partially
<1> well, they believe that 'they' have the power to generate thought from nothing
<1> but instead a determinist believes that thoughts are a result of specific causes, ultimately uncontrollable
<0> That makes them sound like they believe that they're nuclear reactors
<0> I'm not a determinist
<0> I don't know for a fact that we have free will, but I act as if I do, and that's enough for me
<1> I may be off a little
<1> it's ludicrous, you crazies ;)
<0> I think a determinist would say they're not responsible for effects
<0> Whereas a fatalist would say they have no control over effects
<2> JBlitzen: I think that every effect we "will" has a determinate cause, but "free will" exists on many different 'dimensions.'
<0> A determinist does exercise control over effects, but he's "fated to do so"
<1> too many words in quotes, Lateralus
<0> Yeah, Lateralus. "Stop" "that" "stupidity"
<2> JBlitzen: Er, http://www.xanga.com/CaptainScurvy/344430765/item.html might make it more understandable.
<1> yeah I don't agree with fatalism
<0> I think I'll leave the serious discussion on the topic to Captain Scurvy and his ilk.
<0> I'm happier not knowing how the world works. :)
<2> JBlitzen: Meaning you don't get it?
<0> Meaning that for someone as rational as you are, you don't know algebra, and your primary source on philosophy is Captain Scurvy's internet blog.
<0> If that's what certainty is, I don't want it.
<2> JBlitzen: Right, but do you get what he's saying?
<0> I didn't read what he's saying.
<0> And I'm not going to.
<0> If you understood it, say it yourself.
<1> I really didn't read it either, sorry
<0> If not, don't expect me to fall for your appeal to poorly named authority
<2> We were talking about determinism before, how cause produces effect.
<0> Well, determinism isn't that case produces effect
<2> What is it?
<0> Determinism is that all effects are a sum of their causes, and that thus the entire state of existence is predetermined from the original state.
<1> can't you just read the wiki?
<0> The determinist believes that the universe is pseudo-random, basically.
<1> "Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. No mysterious miracles or wholly random events occur."
<2> rdragon: Can't you just read the blog? ;)
<2> Yeah, exactly. Every human-experienced effect is produced bya cause.
<1> not from captain crabs, no
<0> Haha
<0> Or causes. And all effects, not just human experienced ones.
<2> In short, "cause produces effect."
<1> uh
<0> No
<1> Lateralus that's what you would find in the dictionary
<1> the definition of cause is 'something that produces effect'... that's not a philosophy, that's English
<0> A cause isn't a cause without an effect, therefore it is tautological in any worldview that accepts normal English that a cause produces an effect.
<0> Even non-deterministic worldviews.
<2> Er, wait, so what is an effect that isn't produced by a cause?
<0> Non-deterministic, that's what it is.
<0> Let's say God performs a miracle.
<1> Lateralus - the definition of 'effect' is 'something produced by a cause'
<0> That would violate causation in the physical universe
<1> Lateralus - again, dictionary
<2> JBlitzen: The "miracle" being the cause.
<0> Thus christianity is usually not considered deterministic
<2> JBlitzen: And "God' being the cause of the miracle.
<0> Well, God caused the miracle, and God doesn't live on this block
<3> hm
<1> well, determinism stems from the belief that every event is caused by every single prior event.. a 'miracle' would be something inserted into the chain out of nowhere, and that's where the conflict in belief is
<3> c-bot hi
<3> no c-bot.. hehe
<0> What I said before explained this perfectly, Lateralus: Determinists believe that the universe is entirely and only pseudo-random
<0> Hi tam
<2> But we're not talking about God. We're talking about effects. How can they be produced without a cause? If every cause requires an effect, then *no matter what,* your whole existence is predetermined.
<0> What I said before explained this perfectly, Lateralus: Determinists believe that the universe is entirely and only pseudo-random
<1> Lateralus you're stuck in the dictionary world
<2> rdragon: How is an effect produced without a cause?
<0> That's not the question, Lateralus
<1> every cause does require an effect - otherwise, you wouldn't label the event a 'cause', because it didn't cause anything!
<2> JBlitzen: What is?
<1> Lateralus - it's NOT!
<0> The question is, is every aspect of the physical universe wholly an effect, Lateralus
<1> Lateralus - given some event, it's not an 'effect' unless there was a cause. that's by the DICTIONARY
<2> JBlitzen: Why wouldn't it be?
<0> Because you're a ****ing idiot, that's why
<2> JBlitzen: Tha'ts without cause, I suppose.
<1> Lateralus - the idea of non-determinism stems from the belief that a cause can be triggered by some 'higher being' or 'free will' - something not deteministically resultant from the previous state of the universe - something that 'happened out of nowhere'
<0> Well, rdragon would contend that my response was wholly and calculably (theoretically) a product of my inputs, Lateralus.
<2> rdragon: What caused *that*?
<0> That's determinism.
<1> Lateralus - nothing. that's the whole idea
<0> My position is that I just felt like saying it, and I did.
<1> Lateralus - free will means you have the ability to cause thoughts, with no explanation as to 'how' - you just do it, and you have the power to do it
<1> determinists (me) think that's a load of crap
<2> I think free will *exists*, but is subjective. I think it's possible to become aware of all causes for your existence, but even then, you have another set of causes that can be subjectively "free'>
<0> Yeah, you're a load of crap. !
<0> Non deterministic ^
<0> :)
<1> Lateralus - we're not arguing whether determinism is true or not. we're trying to explain to you what it means
<0> And we're having difficulty because of your aforementioned ****ing idiotness
<1> touche
<2> Heh. What does it mean, then?
<1> see: ****ing idiotness
<0> This is why I don't argue politics with students any more, rdragon
<1> Lateralus we've been doing nothing but explaining it to you, and you STILL don't get it.
<2> That effects are produced by causes, right?
<1> Lateralus - you're a drain to society
<0> But hey
<1> well, now you're just trolling
<0> At least he's rational
<0> And that's what matters
<0> Objectivism = pwned
<1> heh
<2> Incidentally, none of you have defined any of your positions.
<1> "I'm a determinist" <- my position
<2> What does that mean?
<1> sorry, we've been down that road already
<1> you'll have to scroll up
<2> Not really.
<1> well, too bad then
<2> In your own words, what does determinism mean?
<1> scroll up, I told you numerous times
<0> It means that you're a ****ing idiot
<1> enact some of that 'free will' that seargent herpes gave you and scroll up
<2> Effect is produced by cause?
<0> It's captain scurvy to you
<0> Determinism has nothing to do with that, Lateralus.
<2> What does it have to do with?
<0> Determinism is the belief that the universe is wholly pseudo-random.
<1> scroll up and find out
<0> In the sense that a random number generator on a computer isn't really random
<2> wtf does pseudo-random mean?
<0> It derives its results entirely from its seeds
<0> Well, you ever use the rand and srand functions?
<2> Right. It isn't *really* random, but functionally, it is.
<1> pseudo-random = it fools you into thinking it's random, but it's exactly deterministic
<4> usually seed is time
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