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Comments:
<0> because once you put the pistol down, they'll take it and beat you with it
<1> okay, sent
<2> Who said put it down?
<0> Alright, alright.
<2> If you're out of options, you pull the trigger.
<1> I guess there is a bit of doomgazer in the emails, but there is also some suggestions and lots of questions... and few realistic answers
<0> rdragon.. JBlitzen's idea of a consultant is a good one. However, in my opinion, they are likely to not hire one for many reasons. If they refuse, bail. Bail quickly.
<2> I don't think you understand
<0> I rarely do
<2> I'm not saying, suggest they hire a consultant.
<2> I'm saying, come up with an idea, maybe hire a consultant, maybe a different idea
<2> But some idea
<2> Or maybe a couple
<2> Be open to other ideas they may suggest
<0> rdragon: are you in a position where you can hire a consultant?
<2> When you feel you have a safety net
<1> no, tca
<2> I don't want HIM to hire a consultant
<2> I'm saying, come up with an idea.
<2> Maybe it'll be for them to hire a consultant.
<2> Maybe it'll be something else.
<2> Come up with some solutions.
<2> Lay out on a piece of paper why they're necessary
<0> heh
<1> JBlitzen look at the email i sent - that was back in May. And I had suggested we pull in a credible consultant way back then
<2> At some point get a safety net
<2> Okay
<2> Because you dumb***es keep interrupting me
<2> I'm going to look at the email
<1> ;)
<2> And I will surely come back and say it's meaningless and irrelevant and shut up and hear me out
<2> *looking at email*
<1> ok
<1> these aren't new concerns I have, this has been going on for months and months
<1> up until now, i've been content with being silenced over and over, and told to 'just do my job' and not worry about anything else
<0> Well, then it's likely they'll start listening to you now. Because... you have solutions!
<3> That's not JBlitzen's point though
<2> Okay
<2> I've looked at the email
<2> It's meaningless
<2> It's irrelevant
<2> Shut up
<1> hehe
<2> Hear me out
<1> go on
<2> Come up with an idea.
<2> Or two.
<2> Or many.
<2> Lay out exactly why they're necessary, on paper, for yourself
<2> Do it the same way you design a cl***
<2> Think of every possible refutation and answer it
<2> Now take that piece of paper with your idea(s)
<2> And reflect on it for a few days or a few weeks
<2> Keep up the job hunt you're doing anyway
<2> When you start to feel like you've got a safety net if you lose this job
<2> Pull out the paper and review it
<2> Again look for any possible problems and write down answers for them and solutions
<2> Or fix your ideas
<2> Whatever, prepare "THE PROPOSAL FOR FIXING THIS CRAP"
<1> nod
<2> "AS BEST I CAN DETERMINE WITH ALL THE INFORMATION I HAVE"
<2> This will not be some emailed ****
<2> You will not email this to fred as an attachment and say "plz read this lol"
<2> You will memorize it, internalize it
<2> Prepare for battle
<2> Ask for and demand a meeting with all key decision makers
<1> (just one decision maker, him)
<2> (meaningless, irrelevant, etc.)
<1> (nod)
<2> Go into the meeting, resolving to walk out with either him thinking about it, him having said okay, him having said no, let's just keep at it, or him having said no, you're fired.
<2> Go samurai, be prepared to die
<2> And say something carefully thought out in the nature of:
<2> "I no longer see this company as having any chance of success, given the problems outlined in this document A. I have some ideas on how you can turn around. Here's document B, containing the ideas."
<2> You don't actually have to have pieces of paper, I don't know what the protocol is
<2> Maybe just memorize the things
<1> aye
<2> And here's the critical part.
<4> *waits with anticipation*
<2> "If we can't come up with some solution that seems promising, be it these or something else, I'm prepared to start looking for interviews with other companies. I won't resign immediately since you still need me, but you'll want to bring in a replacement for me."
<2> Now, you want to go over the actual phrasing, and content, with someone more experienced in the business world than me.
<2> But you want to lay down the law, and make it clear that you're not trying to save your own ***
<2> You're trying to save the company
<2> And that this is, to you, the only chance of doing so.
<2> Or something like that.
<2> Understand where I'm going?
<1> unfortunatly, it makes sense ;)
<2> This isn't just another email, or just another meeting.
<2> This is the meeting.
<1> aye
<2> The conversation.
<2> And it's vital that everyone in it understands that.
<2> You don't stop them in the hall, you schedule the meeting and ask them to close the door when they enter.
<2> That's how real change happens.
<1> (side note - all of our in-person meetings happen at restaurants)
<2> And it's not accomplished by bozos
<2> It's accomplished by people with ideas
<2> Yeah, this one won't
<1> eh, where then? heh
<2> Make it clear that you have to meet somewhere private.
<2> That's not your problem.
<2> Understand what I'm saying?
<1> aye
<2> Stop thinking like you're helpless and that your opinion doesn't matter.
<2> Stop thinking that you won't be taken seriously.
<2> Because when you think that, you guarantee it.
<2> I don't know if you'd want to do this with the bozo in charge or with the investor or the whole team or what
<2> I don't know how much you'd want to couch it toward what you want to do for him, and how important to him you perceive it to be
<1> well the investor is terminally ill and stuck in a bed up in NY
<1> but yeah
<2> Well, that'd be a nice private place to meet, wouldn't it
<1> heh
<2> I'm not kidding, you can't be doomgazer about this
<2> You've got to look at everything as the only opportunity to save this whole mess
<2> And you've got to be right
<2> And you've got to realize that it still might not work, and the results for your job might be disastrous
<2> And you've got to investigate all of those factors and make yourself comfortable that your approach doesn't hurt you, and possibly helps you in the long run, with future interviews or with continued work under him, or whatever
<1> well, before even coming up with solutions to problems, I think I have to convince them that there are problems to begin with, no?
<2> Yes.
<2> And you've got to do that in that meeting.
<1> right
<2> No four months of stroking his ego and appealling to his reason.
<2> He thinks his reasoning is fine
<1> thats exactly what I've had the hardest time getting through to him about - actually admitting that there is a problem, because I just look like a doomgazr
<2> It's not about what you look like
<2> And this is that brick wall
<2> Programmers don't think the way I do, quite
<1> sure it is - I need to have credibility for him to believe me
<2> And you've no doubt noticed this
<3> JBlitzen: Some do
<1> otherwise it just gets shrugged off as me being negative
<2> True, the negativity hurts you
<2> This is why you can't be negative
<2> You can't be doomgazer, because nobody takes doomgazer seriously
<2> When doomgazer lays down the law, we figure he's just being doomgazer
<2> Right?
<1> well then how do I suggest solutions to problems that we don't agree exist?
<2> You stop looking for the compiler error
<2> You stop looking for the explanation of why he doesn't agree they exist
<2> You start looking at what drives him
<2> If he's out to make money, what would appeal most to him?
<3> Talk about the problem and the solutions. "This doesn't work... we need to do this."
<1> moneys drives him, I think
<2> Okay
<2> If I wanted to convince you that I had a way to make money
<2> Er
<2> A way FOR YOU to make money
<2> What would sell you?
<2> Certainly not an email that says "YOU SHOULD CONSIDER DOING THIS"
<2> Right?
<1> right
<2> How about references to similar deals that worked out great?
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