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Comments:
<0> How about references to similar deals that worked out great?
<1> maybe
<0> How about statistics on their chances, and how the market's worked lately
<0> How about numbers?
<0> X made 3999,000023002,0032 doing this
<0> Now, X isn't a perfect analogy to us
<0> But here are the differences
<0> And I think they're compelling
<0> Chart it out
<1> that's where me being a programmer, and him being an "experienced marketing manager" makes it hard for me to convince him that he's wrong
<0> Then you want to talk to some managers
<0> Don't walk into the brick wall, look for solutions to these things
<2> If he's a manager, and you're a coder, you're going to say that he has the expertise in getting the code done right, because of his experience managing coders? You could phrase that the other way
<0> Yeah, various things appeal to various people
<2> You're the expert at coding, he's just a manager
<0> Look around for people in those positions, and ask them what works
<1> well...
<1> for example,
<0> The only problem I foresee is that you'd be fighting your own tide
<0> Ziggy can't turn into Hercules all of a sudden and expect to be taken seriously
<0> But that's really just a question of your mindset.
<0> Any idiot can prepare himself physically and in this case intellectually to prepare a fight, but it really comes down to willpower.
<0> And that's where I find programmers tend to whack into the brick wall
<0> For whatever reason, they lack the drive that's necessary to do great things
<0> And I'm not saying you do, per se, just that we spend so much time examining our bytecode navels that we sort of lose the ability to focus on broader objectives
<0> I'm guilty of that too
<3> JBlitzen: that's so true..
<0> People wonder why the managers make so much money and write so little code
<0> It's because it's a far different thing to be responsible for an entire company than it is to be responsible for some bytecode
<0> And it's this sort of problem that makes it so different.
<1> not even sure what I was going to say
<0> You can be Ziggy or you can be Hercules, and it's really tough to be Hercules
<0> But in this case it sounds like it's necessary
<0> OR
<1> oh, your comment about finding other managers / people in similar positions
<0> You've incorrectly evaluated the situation
<0> Which is something you want to be on the lookout for
<1> ziggy from quantum leap?
<0> http://sidesplitters.catastrophe.net/arch/2001/ziggy.gif
<0> That ziggy
<1> ah ;p
<0> In fact, that's a perfect panel
<0> I was just thinking of the character, but it's telling that a google search spit that out as one of the first returns
<4> It's an omen.
<0> Ziggy gives up on things
<0> Someone pushes Ziggy around, Ziggy fumes
<0> Hercules pushes the guy back through a ****ing wall
<0> It's all about the synapses and personal philosophies that guide that response
<0> Doomgazer and ziggy epitomize the side that gives up before the competition starts
<0> And rdragon, you've clearly given up here
<0> And I think you've still got cards to play, even if they ****
<1> mostly given up - but not before almost a year of trying
<0> I know, but that's email trying.
<0> That's ziggy trying.
<0> That's the chained dog yipping.
<0> Well, if you're looking for work, the chain just broke.
<1> I understand your point - but is it really worth it for me?
<0> And you have to re-analyze your situation given that new factor.
<0> Well, that's the question.
<0> It wouldn't be worth it to Ziggy.
<0> He'd give up and try somewhere else.
<4> Or doomgazer.
<0> And forty years from now he'd still be giving up and trying somewhere else.
<0> That's why Ziggy's Ziggy.
<0> There is a transition that only occurs in moments of personal greatness
<1> I think it would be more valuable to join a 'real' team where most of the people share the same opinions as I about how things 'should work', and then we could actually get work done, instead of dealing with all of the politics of it
<0> And I see an opportunity for you here, along that line.
<0> And it doesn't look like you lose anything by trying
<0> Other than some elbow grease
<1> except time and stress
<0> Well, that's why the big chiefs make the big bucks.
<0> You can move on and always fume about them and lost opportunities, or you can give it a shot.
<4> Yeah. You never know.. you might get a promotion out of it
<0> Let me put it this way
<4> So then you can be part of the problem instead of part of the solution!
<1> lol
<0> If you had the perfect conversation with the principle investor
<1> the investor has no say in how things are run
<0> I mean perfect, ideal, you know, charmed, voodoo, whatever
<0> The perfect ideal thing
<0> Well, whoever
<1> the money is transferred - the investor is basically out of the picture
<1> okay, so the boss
<0> There may still be a contract
<1> there is, to pay it back... but it's laughable
<0> You don't know what the conditions are
<1> sure I do
<0> Have you read the contract?
<1> no, but I have a pretty good idea of how it works
<0> No, you don't.
<0> You don't know what the conditions are
<3> then you have no clue
<0> Why do I feel like Judge Judy
<0> Either you know something or you don't know something
<0> Here, with the investor relationship
<1> alright, I know based on what he's told me
<0> You don't know it
<0> Yeah, he lied
<0> And he's wrong about many things
<0> And he misunderstood many things
<0> And he was lied to
<0> And the person who told him was wrong about some things
<0> Etc.
<1> okay
<0> Nobody really knows this ****
<0> If they did, the world wouldn't need lawyers
<1> well, alright - irregardless....
<0> Try opening a phone book to the L section some time
<0> Seriously, don't be Ziggy
<0> Throw everything on the table
<0> Recognize that the chain snapped
<0> And understand this:
<0> If you somehow managed to do a certain perfect thing and you managed to do it perfectly, which of course is impossible for humans, but approachable, any idiot could see you taking over the project.
<0> Or saving it.
<0> And imagine how that would look to a new employer
<1> okay
<0> Now, that won't happen, probably.
<1> on the other hand, what if a new employer is ready to hire me now?
<0> Then I'd contend you're settling for a smaller fish than your pole can handle
<0> But really it just sweetens the deal.
<0> Because that's your safety net.
<0> God just granted you a pardon for whatever you do this month.
<0> Close your eyes, think about that, and open them again.
<0> And think about what you'll want to have done fifty years from now.
<1> I suppose... my goal here is to get on to an existing project where I can prove myself under a credible company and recognized project
<0> Right
<0> Hitch your crippled horse to the right wagon and nobody will notice you're a crippled horse
<1> and once that happens, THAT becomes my stepping stone for the next step
<0> Someday my dream will come, eh
<1> yep, someday
<0> Why not this month
<0> It's worth a shot
<0> That's all I'm saying
<1> it would be wrong to start at the top, IMO
<0> There's a basic ethic here, of never **** in a field and walk away.
<0> Always bury it
<3> yeah
<0> Now, see, right there you're admitting to the possibility that you'd end up on top
<0> And that's my point
<3> finish what you've started
<0> It's an ideal goal that probably would never happen in this situation
<5> hellooo
<3> or atleast end it gravefully
<1> I don't see it as a realistic possibility
<3> grace..
<0> I think you do
<0> For that moment your fingers admitted what your mind denies
<1> I don't have the skills to perform
<0> And that's the brick wall of programmers
<0> The skill to perform is in the mindset
<5> so im not a programmer - im the art guy for a game mod, but i've been given some code and want to implement it myself, and i've apparently done everything right except 1 thing
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