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Comments:
<0> hey guys anyone know how to run xampp as non-root?
<1> Windrose: ?
<1> webben: just who I was looking for
<1> bloody good timing
<2> Eh?
<2> At 00:20:bloodysomething?
<3> :)
<1> Windrose: I thought midnight only made you stronger
<2> sh1mmer: I may have pointy ears and extended canines, but I'm not THAT depraved.
<3> how can i help, sh1mmer? :)
<4> sh1mmer, hello :)
<4> what's up?
<1> :P
<1> Windrose: I'm looking for a resource about screen readers, a definitive list of, and usage numbers ideally
<1> Windrose: not that depraved unless we ask nicely?
<1> I wouldn't mind a cuppa if you are offering
<2> sh1mmer: not that depraved unless V asks nicely ;)
<1> Windrose: hehe
<4> sh1mmer, current screen readers? or current and dead screen readers?
<1> lucky V :)
<1> webben: same q. I asked windrose
<1> webben: current ones
<2> sh1mmer: hm. A definitive list of, that'll be oddly difficult; with usage numbers we are into make-warp-drive-work territory. Did you check the W3C list first (silly question)
<4> sh1mmer, http://www.benjaminhawkeslewis.com/www/accessibility/free-screen-readers.html doesn't claim to be definitive, but it includes some rarities
<1> Windrose: yeah, but their list ****s. wikipedia have an equally silly list
<1> in that it's more complete but lists stuff I've never heard of and probably no-one else had
<1> has
<4> Stuff I know is missing includes dead ones like prwebspeech or whatever it was called, and the Japanese screen reader that Flash claims to support.
<2> sh1mmer: mm. Yes. Wikipedia does suffer from a certain lack of real world focus. webben's list might be your best bet.
<4> (the URI is slightly deceptive, it's actually an attempt to list free and /trial/ screen readers
<4> oh it's also missing freedombox
<4> in fact, rather than listing what it's missing might as well try and add these things ;)
<4> ;)
<2> webben: oh, and whilst I'm in this queer mood - excellent layout.
<3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9YTxff3pHU
<1> webben: worth noting that the apple voice over ****s stupendously
<2> Ah, well, the question is: doesn't ALL of them **** equally badly? Jaws ... does not impress me. Opera's voice mode is better.
<2> ... but Opera's voice/speech mode isn't a screen reader.
<1> you can't actually use it to surf with because you can't get safari (to my knowledge) to give you keyboard access to anything except forms etc
<4> hmm
<4> i suspect you can
<1> Windrose: right, and there in lays the problem, HPR could have been the mutts nuts but people need a screen reader
<4> nickshanks had to use it for a couple of days when he was monitor less
<4> he seemed to do okay
<2> sh1mmer: we are discussing 'screen readers' instead of 'speech browsers' here now, r ight?
<2> ... and yes, HPR was very nice indeed.
<4> but Apple seems to have a knack for hiding their own accessibility features
<1> webben: I haven't be able to find the option to do that
<2> webben: I have to note a detail I disagree with there ... people who are used to working with screen readers on a regular basis is, imho and iho several disabled people, not necessarily a good methodology ...
<1> webben: I've found a way to go through links using opt+tab but I can't see a way to get everything yet
<1> I might do some research
<1> webben: this is around my desire to extend what Gez has been doing to cover the panopia of AT people use
<1> the latest version of JAWS != user reality
<2> sh1mmer: unless you live in the dreamworld which is Swedish accessibility policy.
<1> Windrose: can't you lot afford to give everyone JAWS anyway?
<4> Windrose, Just to be clear are you talking about the problem of people who are new to screen readers? Or the problem of people who use screen readers failing to notice that something is not working because they don't even realize it's there?
<2> sh1mmer: that's the /theory/. Practice is entirely different.
<4> Windrose, What I had in mind when I wrote that was the Krynn Barlett (can't remember spelling offhand) problem of web designers thinking they know how screen readers work but not really after too brief an experience.
<2> webben: no, actually ... I was thinking about a conversation I had with a blind girl a while ago. She pointed out that since she was used to Jaws idiocyncrasies, knew EXACTLY how to fine-tune it, and knew how websites worked, she often found sites accessible that 'normal' Jaws users didn't.
<2> webben: Kynn Bartlett, and PLEASE don't think about him.
<1> webben: In regards to point 4 about developers getting used to screen readers, I disagree
<1> we are the a-typical developers
<4> That may be true ... should we be though?
<1> we understand and get immersed in accessibility to a level most people never will, them trying to use a screen reader will just render a false results
<1> webben: surely you read my post about accessibility patterns?
<1> :D
<4> yeah i remember that one :)
<2> The same goes for people who are expert users of software; they often - subconsciously - correct for flaws.
<1> webben: nah the one from Friday in response to Gez and Steve's AJAX update
<1> Windrose: I agree, we went to RNIB the other week, and the guy was showing us how he used amazon
<4> having said that, maybe the problem is "All web developers and web designers should gain" ... an understanding of accessibility sufficient not to misunderstand the experience of using a screen reader, before using it?
<1> and he was skipping straight over those no alt crazy named images like nothing I've ever seen
<2> sh1mmer: *nods*
<1> because he had taught himself how to deal with amazon
<2> sh1mmer: I'd be willing to bet he didn't even stop to think about doing it.
<4> sh1mmer, the thing is it's chicken and egg...some things can be hard to explain until someone tries a screen reader for themselves.
<1> webben: theory yes, practice no. It's too deep a topic to giving p***ing attention too. I'd rather give them patterns that work because someone who _really_ knows has tested them.
<4> Does the same go for cross-browser support?
<4> which often takes elaborate testing to fully verify?
<1> webben: sure, but there are ways and ways
<1> I'm running a workshop soon where we are going to help people understand about non-keyboard input by trying to get them to morse code to each other by blowing straws
<1> webben: I agree, but X-browser testing is something within the capabilities of developers in a way AT isn't
<1> the concept shift is less, and the inconsistencies tend to be technical rather than interface
<2> webben: it's really a problem with testing in general. Often a developer/author/etc will, subconsciously, avoid putting scrutiny on pieces they, again subsciously, know might be flawed. In this case ... if you test in the browser you use daily, you are more likely to 'patch', if you will, problems.
<2> webben: hell, it's a problem known from other areas which is why, for instance, a teacher won't - in some school systems - correct the exams of his/her own students because they automatically apply 'filters' if you will.
<1> Windrose: testing is one thing, awareness while developing is another, and I agree with webben that awareness is an issue
<2> sh1mmer: oh, I don't disagree there. It's HOW to awaken that awareness which is a problem.
<1> but I'm not sure the average developer would ever use a screen reader enough to get anything but a flawed understanding from a practical sense
<2> sh1mmer: or rather, how to awaken it without at the same time making the very same awareness flawed.
<1> Windrose: well that's what I was saying about this workshop
<1> by having the people try to communicate with each other by blowing through straws, they start to understand how hard some people have to work to navigate via the keyboard
<1> that kind of understanding, theoretical understanding is good, when coupled with techniques they can apply
<1> my main focus right now, is getting people to have a sense for when a problem might occur so they can ask for more help from someone who really knows
<1> so the average developer doesn't need to know all the accessibility answer, but mostly know when to flag for a possible issue
<2> sh1mmer: with these elequent words I bid thee goodnight ;)
<1> Windrose: gnight mdear
<4> good night Windrose :)
<2> Sweet dreamn. Preferably /not/ of accessibility.
<1> webben: hope I'm not bollocking on too much ben
<1> :)
<4> not at all :)
<4> now I remember why I didn't include KDS PC Talker the first time round
<4> I can't actually find any reference to it other than in Best practices for accessible flash
<4> yeah, they should really make the demo evaluation versions permanently available from the site
<1> right
<1> I may suggest that
<1> having a yahoo-inc email address is pretty helpful
<4> hehe :)
<1> even if I say it's not directly for work people immediately take you more seriously
<1> which is nice
<3> hah
<3> true
<5> anyone here a fireworks guru?
<5> any good tutorials out there on rounding the edges of a <div>
<4> sh1mmer, Ah yes ... there are also some screen readers are RNIB's list that I haven't investigated at all: http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/PublicWebsite/public_withoutvisinfosheet.hcsp
<4> don't think i've looked into Guide for example
<6> One left!
<6> I'm downloading a depressing anime series
<6> Banzai!
<6> I'll watch it in a bit
<5> any thoughts on the best way to get rounded divs?
<7> same way you get rounded files
<5> rounded files?
<5> Nanobot: how would you do rounded div corners?
<8> OT: a short movie mocking Kim Jong Il and his secret agent buying something from China: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EE52D9ED01495685
<9> facenew: please stop spamming that all over freenode, I've seen you post that in like 5 channels now.;
<10> can one see a URL that a submit botton sends?
<11> wow.. it wasn't just Target that had Wii's.. all major chains stockpiled Wii's and released them today apparently.. and all sold out before opening
<12> before opening?
<12> that's a neat trick...
<11> Yeah.. they gave out tickets an hour before opening.. no ticket no Wii
<12> ah, okay :p
<12> I guess that saves them the trouble of people killing each other en route
<12> of course undoubtedly some folks didn't have the necessary fundage
<11> Well.. it makes them less liable. When I got my ticket I scrambled to the car to lock myself up fearing getting robbed for the ticket. heh
<11> It's like Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
<11> It was pretty orderly though
<11> Only a few groups went home without Wii's
<11> Most people in my line were uber geeks so I felt right at home
<11> I'm totaly going to the next major console launch event to find myself a wife. :p
<11> One guy was saying they have $300 in accessories already without the Wii
<11> and he missed getting it by one
<11> The fing employees either took bribes or snagged them pre-relaunch though. A week ago tons of people said stores all told them a minimum of 20.. but many had.. not 20
<11> mine had 16.. someone elses had 4
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