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<glen_quagmire> problem is some of the buttons are image buttons
<webben> ajnewbold: i don't think it's particularly more regular than French/German/Italian/Japanese
<glen_quagmire> so, <input type="image" name="do_something" value="1"
<glen_quagmire> that won't work in IE
<webben> especially not in real use (see Terrence)
<webben> ajnewbold: everything is more regular than english of course
<ajnewbold> webben: well, French and Italian inherit their exceptions from Latin :P German is full of exceptions to rules in its grammar, and Japanese is just ****ed up
<ajnewbold> webben: Even though Japanese might be highly regular, all of the damn changes in grammar that are dependent on honorifics and cultural status just blow my mind :)
<ajnewbold> I think Chinese might be the most regular language next to Russian, at least in terms of verbs, as there are no irregular verbs :P
<ajnewbold> well, Russian's verbs conjugate but are all regular, and Chinese verbs just don't conjugate :)
<webben> ah, i didn't know that :)
<ajnewbold> webben: in Russian, even "to be" is regular
<webben> wow
<ajnewbold> yeah
<webben> i wonder how that happened
<ajnewbold> it's refreshing

<ajnewbold> communism
<ajnewbold> ;)
<webben> seriously? did they regularize the language?
<ajnewbold> no, hehe
<ajnewbold> I'm just being a smartass
<ajnewbold> but the chinese did!
<ajnewbold> in the... 50s? 60s? can't recall
<webben> yes ... that's why i thought it might be possible :)
<webben> yeah -- they junked all the "elitist" characters in favour of some sort of alphabet, as i understand it
<webben> of course the characters are still around too
<glen_quagmire> i want to write a javascript function that takes form_id and button_id and if image button is pressed, it'll create hidden input with same name and value of the image button and submit
<ajnewbold> webben: well, Taiwan adopted a sort of alphabet... which mainland china forbids people from learning. What Beijing ordered was the vast simplification of the "old" characters
<webben> so it was only a little more ore successful than the English experiment with phonetic spelling
<webben> ajnewbold: to a common subset?
<ajnewbold> they did however put into place the pinyin romanization system
<webben> ah
<ajnewbold> webben: more or less, yeah
<ajnewbold> pinyin is why "Beijing" is "Beijing"... when it used to be "Peking" under Wade-Giles
<ajnewbold> people see "Peking" and they pronounce it as "pay-king"
<webben> i see
<ajnewbold> but they should be saying "Beijing" :)
<ajnewbold> since P = B and K = J, phonetically, under Wade-Giles
<webben> hmmm ... makes perfect sense :)
<ajnewbold> only problem this has caused is the nine million different ways to write people's names in chinese, especially historical figures
<webben> more confusion, hurrah! :)
<ajnewbold> pinyin says that we should spell out the key figure in Taoism as "Laozi" but you'll find it written as "Lao-tse" and "Lao-tzu" and others
<ajnewbold> heh, pinyin also says it's "Daoism", not "Taoism" :P
<ajnewbold> Windrose: yeah
<nphase> JS/ajax updating of the image works in FF (change the color from black to white and back and forth), but not in IE.. i added a rand() at the end of the image to show that its updating the image div's inners. any ideas?
<ajnewbold> but Mr. Wade and Mr. Giles are dead, and we can't beat them up over sparking years of confusion :P
<ajnewbold> much as I'd like to
<hax> hmm
<nphase> in IE everything else updates fine though
<nphase> the price
<ajnewbold> "Hey you. Yeah, you two! C'mere, I've got something for you... a 'gift' from a population of confused people"
<nphase> the out of stock thingy
<nphase> bleh
<ajnewbold> a KNUCKLE SANDWICH!
<Windrose> ajnewbold: actually, we could simply ... ignore them, and stick with the Chinese way? ;)
<ajnewbold> Windrose: the best way would be to use IPA
<ajnewbold> (in my opinion)
<ajnewbold> IPA just works, and if people would learn the characters and sounds then they could use it all over
<nphase> is there any way i can see what the error is in IE
<nphase> the javascript error
<ajnewbold> nphase: there's a thing you can install from MS that provides more detailed info
<ajnewbold> nphase: some kind of JS debugger
<ajnewbold> nphase: I forgot the name though :(
<Windrose> ajnewbold: in a word of Unicode, just use the 'original' characters ;)
<ajnewbold> Windrose: well, yeah, that would be ideal :)
<ajnewbold> heh, I wonder if anyone has an entire web site in IPA
<ajnewbold> that'd be neat :)
<ajnewbold> lepine: encode them
<lepine> fsck
<ajnewbold> lepine: like &#232;
<ajnewbold> I think
<ajnewbold> no
<ajnewbold> there's a better way
<lepine> ajnewbold looking into it ... but what's your better way?

<ajnewbold> lepine: the better way is to use the unicode codes
<lepine> what does that mean for my php code and js ?
<ajnewbold> well
<ajnewbold> you'll still need to encode them
<ajnewbold> unless you can get your ajax/json to do it for you somehow
<ajnewbold> that might be your best bet... I'm sure there's a way
<gilianima> hi
<gilianima> how to have a div that is always on the top of my browser window ?
<Dorward> gilianima: position it absolutely and set a very high z-index on it
<gilianima> a very high z-index ?
<Dorward> `css z-index
<miniE> Found for CSS 2 - z-index -
<piratepenguin> use fixed positioning (posit
<piratepenguin> use fixed positioning*
<piratepenguin> `css position
<miniE> Found for CSS 2 - position -
<gilianima> I mean a div that keeps its position even if I'm going down in the window
<krisp> gilianima javascript I believe is the only way to achieve that.
<webben> There's an interesting-ish discussion about how to build accessibility into WHATWG specs on the WHATWG mailing list, centering around whether support should be provided by 1) standardized class attributes 2) xhtml2-style roles 3) XBL2
<webben> personally, i would have thought the best solutions would be (in order of preference)
<gilianima> krisp: no, there a css style that allow it, I just can't remember it...
<nphase> any ideas with my problem?
<krisp> ..
<Windrose> gilianima: 'fixed positioning'. Not well supported.
<webben> 1) implicit in elements themselves 2) roles + class/js/xbl where necessary for UAs 3) class attributes
<webben> i'm curious what you folks think
<gilianima> ok, "position: fixed" works, thanks
<webben> i tend to think class is overloaded as it is
<webben> and the xbl2 spec mentions accessibility only once
<nphase> no one? :(
<webben> whereas the W3C's roles/class business is actually being implemented by Firefox/Window-Eyes/Jaws
<nphase> javascript's error on page is STUPID
<nphase> er
<nphase> IE*s
<nphase> and the MS script debugger wont install
<nphase> some stupid INF error
<webben> can anyone stand that debugger anyway
<Dorward> webben: Its better then the junk that comes with IE :)
<webben> i get so cross with the way it takes about a century to load that i just give up and bug hunt by hand
<Windrose> webben: which won't help anyone using other browsers, after all. Lets not kid ourselves - authors are going to start misusing 'role' asap.
<webben> Windrose: hmm, misusing it to do what?
<Windrose> webben: adding gibberish and claiming it has semantic value.
<webben> Windrose: and 2) given authors misuse everything, does that matter?
<webben> what sort of gibberish are you thinking of?
<Windrose> Depends on your viewpoint ... it'll give people another way out of doing anything right.
<webben> Windrose: do they seem short of ways out atm?
<glen_quagmire> <input type="image" is not included in form.elements wtf???
<glen_quagmire> should I stop using input type="image" all together?
<Windrose> webben: no, but that's really no reason to make it worse.
<webben> Windrose: I don't see how it could be any worse really.
<Windrose> webben: now, if I recall correctly there are 7 predefined 'roles' - and people are going to make up more of them. Which UAs won't understand.
<Windrose> webben: sure, with 'role', the W3C rubberstamp a way to extend the language beyond what UAs know - and make it entirely appropriate. Authors can go on producing crap /and/ have it officially approved. Which is all nice and neat.
<webben> Why would anyone create a role that UAs don't understand? What would be the motive for that?
<nphase> does anyone have microsoft script debugger running with IE?
<W_> webben, because one, or some, would understand it
<Dorward> nphase: I got MSE running this morning
<webben> W_: oh, well that's no different to the situation we have at the moment
<nphase> Dorward: well i cant get this to work on either computer, do you mind loading a page and telling me what the error is?
<webben> where specs exceed UA capabilities at almost every turn
<nphase> in IE
<Dorward> nphase: I don't have a copy of IE with access to the WWW
<nphase> bleh
<nphase> anyone else? :-/
<Windrose> webben: but it is. Today you CAN add crap that only one UA understand - but you can be called on it. In the future you can add crap and it'd be /entirely/ approved. "Of COURSE our websites are accessible - see? WCAG 2.0. Entirely correct."
<webben> Windrose: yeah, WCAG 2.0 sounds like a bit of trainwreck anyway
<Dorward> bit? ;)
<Windrose> Unless, of course, you want to rubberstamp a crappy site - then it's heavensent ;)
<webben> I think the issue of roles and UA support probably needs to be considered separately from WCAG 2.0 .
<Windrose> webben: well, yes, perhaps. Except for <div role="foo:paragraph"> ... </div> constructs ...
<webben> isn't that a markup issue rather than an accessibility issue per se?
<webben> (except in so far as UAs don't recognize roles)



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