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Comments:
<0> because windows apps, linux apps, web apps, all break heh
<1> Ruby is Obfuscated Perl Web 2.0 Edition :-)
<2> _W_: Incompability...
<2> And I'm primarily talking about applets...
<1> wow, this is exactly what i needed: http://proto.layer51.com/d.aspx?f=636
<3> Ruby's apparentlyvery good
<0> KimmoA, what do you mean? Also, applets aren't really the best; java web start has pretty much obsoleted it
<4> KimmoA: Judging Java based on applets is pretty silly.
<2> Roar.
<2> Even "pure" Java apps feel sluggish even on modern boxes.
<1> krisp, Ruby is powerful for sure, but not elegant either
<4> Polysics: Eye of the beholder.
<0> KimmoA, java apps from poor programmers perhaps
<0> but then you can make sluggy native apps as well
<4> KimmoA: I routinely use a handful of Java apps that I can't discern a noticalbe performance difference from native apps.
<1> mattmcc, it's also one of the slowest web app languages, althogh that is getting better
<3> Polysics people say that PHP is not elegant - but surely it all depends on how it's been coded and who it's been coded by!
<2> Hrm.
<1> krisp, my opinion on PHP is that it is the John Deere of languages
<1> does its job very well, you can do anything with it, but it's not something you drive at a fancy restaurant :-)
<1> still, you can't plow with a Ferrari!
<0> Polysics, surely that depends on what php's job is
<1> i think PHP is the fastest cobble-it-together lang there is, next to Perl
<1> but building good foundations for big apps is hard
<0> I find ruby to be even faster to develop in than php
<0> but with the same long-term problems of maintainability
<1> i've been looking at Django/Python lately, that's a good language and a sound framework, too bad it doesn't have as many followers
<0> some of the same at least
<0> ruby oo is slightly better than php :)
<1> _W_, that is the REAL problem: where will the app be two years from now?
<1> well, if you like OO, python beats them all
<4> Polysics: I wouldn't let the perceived following impact your decision. I've been using Django for the better part of a year, and am quite pleased with it.
<0> ruby, php, python, all have runtime type checking, which is one of the main reasons for unmaintainable apps
<1> mattmcc, i need to spend a couple days on it, i hope i will have the tiem this week
<0> or even transparent type conversion
<4> Polysics: The IRC channel is pretty useful.
<1> sadly but true, Java is the only language that has all the really useful maintanining features
<1> alas, before MAINTAINING something you need to actually BUILD it :-)
<1> mattmcc, mind if ask what the chan is so i can bookmark it?
<4> Er, #django
<1> er :-P
<3> Polysics PHP could be used to power a pretty large application... after all Yahoo! is powered on it IIRC - it's just usually mashed together by people who don't have a clue (like me :P )
<4> It's all about how you structure your code.
<1> PHP's cobbled-together OOP structure makes good structuring hard
<4> That hasn't been my experience.
<1> harder than Python or Java for sure
<4> I've got subcl***ing and composition, I'm content.
<5> mattmcc: I guess you never made a large scale application that a lot of evil people try to exploit :)
<2> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/77/Phat_Pants_worn_by_Boy_Raver.jpg <-- Weird jeans.
<4> That's rather presumptuous.
<1> i think PHP6 will solve many issues, the team seems to have listened to the complaints about 5
<5> mattmcc: Not really. I havent seen one good large scale php application yet. I am looking forward to seeing what they do with php6 though
<1> but until that day, i still need to find a decent alternative :-)
<4> Well, you can't see mine, of course, it's not open. ;)
<1> ok ppl, need to move now, thanks for the chat
<4> But it's the affiliate app behind a top 5 online poker site.
<1> believe it or not, i'm off to teach PHP to some kids :-)
<4> It gets, shall we say, a little attention from exploiters.
<2> Don't teach them OO.
<0> the problem with saying "just structure your code" is that programmers are fallible, and unless the language _enforces_ a consistent structure, it's easy to slip a little here and there, and these things ball up and soon you have spagetti
<3> Polysics kids?
<1> KimmoA, that's exactly the topic of these days, we have interfaces on the menu today :-)
<2> :|
<1> krisp, well, actually, 18-55 yrs old, but i like calling them kids :-)
<2> OO = complete silliness. Especially in PHP. But I don't wanna discuss that... ;S
<4> KimmoA: That's probably for the best.
<3> KimmoA non sense... many things in PHP can and should be considered an 0object
<1> it's an unemployed course, we try to teach them skills they can use to get a small job somewhere
<3> lol PHP for the unemployed... :)
<1> it's a course focused on learning to build a small dynamic website and maintain it
<5> krisp: No no. PHP for employment :P
<2> Hrm.
<2> Polysics: Don't teach them bad practice.
<4> Stellar advice.
<1> then the school places them in businesses that need a website guy
<3> KimmoA I'm sure you didn't mean to sound patronizing but....
<1> mattmcc, lol :-P
<3> :P
<3> Polysics at a low hourly rate :P ?
<1> krisp, in Italy, any job beats no job these days :-)
<3> you're in italy?
<1> or are you asking about my rate?
<1> yep
<3> :)
<3> I didn't realise there was a high rate of unemployment there
<1> well, i can only insist on the easy good practices, like separating HTML from code
<3> hmm - nice :)
<0> KimmoA, imo every programmer should know functional programming, oo, and logic programming, as well as have a good sense of database normalisation (and analogues in programming)
<1> we do have a high rate of "returning" unemployment
<3> hmmm - lazy people you mean :P
<1> that is, people that had a job and lost it
<1> mostly factories closgin down
<4> Habitually unemployed? :)
<2> It sounds like a terrible idea to teach non-programmers "how to get rich quick" on the Web...
<3> oh
<2> This is gonna lead to even more spamblogs.
<1> KimmoA, that is totally not the point
<5> I doubt it's a get rich scheme he is running :)
<1> it's a social thing more than a real tech thing, if you get my lead
<2> I estimate that most of the Blogger blogs are MFA... and there are lots.
<2> And then they're spammed on Digg, Usenet, etc...
<1> that is, let's get these people that have problems running again, eventually they will get better
<1> i do have a couple of REALLY good pupils too
<2> Scraped or nonsense contents, purely as an excuse to slap ugly, tastless AdSense ads on them.
<3> Polysics really good :P ?
<1> one of them is getting a full-time job at a company i applied for and got rejected! :-)
<2> I wish they would have kept some of the quality control over at Google.
<1> krisp, read the above and mock me :-P
<2> But what do I expect from an IT company which doesn't validate and doesn't know what a header is?
<3> lol - you might've been over qualified :P
<1> i've always had the feeling i was better at teaching stuff than doing it :-)
<1> well, i do have a master's and a 5 page cv :-)
<3> KimmoA they don't validate because of a space over head. It's not done through stupidity
<6> the usual do as i say and not as i do?
<1> deadroot, probably :-)
<3> Polysics masters in what :P ?
<6> =)
<1> i now really have to run, see you later! thanks for the chat!
<3> ciao buddy
<1> Software engineering
<3> coolio...
<1> i'm one of those lousy analysts that bug you with insane requests :-)
<3> lol
<1> bb all!
<2> "<td><font size="+1"><b>Help Center</b></font></td>"
<2> Yay for the competent Google.
<6> lol
<2> They apparently haven't heard about h1, h2, etc... and we trust them to rank our sites? :|
<4> Yes, because one thing has nothing to do with the other.
<2> Their own pages **** SEO-wise... except they are automatically given PR10.
<3> KimmoA they have... and choose not to use it
<2> krisp: Why?
<3> again, I believe down to code over head... If you look everything on the google homepage is microcode - as little as possibel to get what's need in every browser - including the js functions
<3> onload="sf();"
<3> for example (the switch focus function)
<2> ...
<2> Dude.
<2> First of all, this page is very deep in their site.
<2> Secondly, <h1>Header</h1> is MUCH less code.
<2> Just admit it. You work at Google and/or have shares in the company. ;)
<3> KimmoA Dude - I'm talking about www.google.com
<2> http://mail.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?topic=1546&disablechatbrowsercheck=1
<2> That's just an example.
<3> oh there you mean - I get ya... it's just not high on their priority list to comply with standards suggested by a governing body ...
<2> ...
<3> and no, I don't work at google - as my IP will show
<2> You could be at home.
<7> would love to hear comments on concept layout : http://petereide.name/vegoil/spec1/
<2> Great. Now Google replied to my AdWords complaint that I sent them like weeks ago. Opera has suddenly started breaking in that "app".
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