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Comments:
<raden> anyone use vonage voice over IP ?
<groogs> as i said, i'm not trying to troll suse here, i'm trying to help :p
<benJIman> groogs: you're not the first person to think it would be a good idea to have mirror list automatically
<groogs> and quite honestly, the debian netinstaller (with Sarge anyways, the woody one was horrible) is very easy....
<groogs> i'm sure im not
<benJIman> but net install cd is not intended for use by new users anyway as it will never be as easy to use as using physical media, so it is not such a priority as other things that affect people who won't know how to resolve them
<benJIman> groogs: it's really not if you don't know what you're doing wrt partitioning, bootloader etc
<groogs> why, it doesn't have all that stuff?
<benJIman> debian's is a nightmare from a user's point of view for setting those things up
<[mdevilz]> benJIman: gentoo stage1 is much easier
<Frogbarf> is there a way to set kopete to logon as invisible for all accounts?
<[mdevilz]> i could never get debian to work
<benJIman> and debian mirror list is not complete in the one it has automatically
<benJIman> to get decent speeds from uni you have to use the edit sources.list manually option
<benJIman> and edit the sources file with nano
<benJIman> which is considerably harder than entering the url in the dialog box you have to in suse's
<groogs> benJIman: not really, unless you do it manually. the auto partitioner works well .. it gives you a menu like "all files in one partition" / "seperate /home /usr /" / "manually parition.." and has a small blurb about each option
<shuffle2> ahhh....just got my 19" lcd back from repairs.......i love suse so much more now ;)
<benJIman> groogs: and nuke stuff randomly unless you customize it
<benJIman> groogs: and unlike the suse partition it doesn't detect what swap/boot partitions etc you have allready and offers the same proposal each time, and nukes other OSes
<groogs> benJIman: there is a manual place to enter a source in debians apt-setup too
<groogs> ok thats probably true, i've never installed it with another OS
<hussam> 34 packages in Yast are marked as 'protected'. How can I remove the protected mark?
<benJIman> and good luck editing these things manually in the debian installer
<aka_druid> hussam, click on it?
<benJIman> especially if you don't know what you're doing
<benJIman> groogs: anyhow if you want to evaluate how easy it is for new users, then do things the way new users would, ie use the install media
<groogs> yeah, i'm downloading cd1 now
<hussam> aka_druid: I did and chose accept but when I restart yast, they become protected again
<groogs> do i need more than that? i wasn't going to use a GUI
<benJIman> 10.0 has some stuff on other cds, but you can always install it later
<aka_druid> hussam, restarted? you mean you pressed ok, finish, it run suseconfig and still protected?
<benJIman> 10.1 has more sensible package layout
<groogs> (i'm trying to install zimbra on a test system.. i'm not a huge fan of fedora, don't want to install zimbra manually, and figured this was a good chance to try suse)
<hussam> aka_druid: yes
<aka_druid> NED stepped away from media designing this time
<benJIman> if you don't want gui just use the non-gui selection
<aka_druid> hussam, odd. So I dont know
<benJIman> and ignore anything it wants from other disks, and install it if you wish from package manager later
<shuffle2> benJIman: how hard is it to upgrade to 10.1? and will I lose settings such as custom init scripts? (probably the most faqs.... :/ )
<benJIman> quite easy and no you shouldn't lose such settings, you can always back up /etc if you're worried
<benJIman> backups are of course always advisable in any sitation
<shuffle2> All I got to backup onto are dvds....
<groogs> shuffle2: i use rsync to backup /etc on my servers weekly.. it does differntial backups (taking only slightly more space than /etc itself) and i can go back in time to previous configs ... very handy
<groogs> automated backups are key.. manual backups eventually don't get done.. then you need them..
<shuffle2> ...just running a home pc here....no valuable server data....but I'll look into rsync
<groogs> shuffle2: hey, its still pretty handy
<groogs> i do /home with it as well
<benJIman> suse will automatically back up sysconfig and other key settings when doing a major upgrade
<benJIman> but if you have anything important it's of course advisable to make your own backups
<groogs> shuffle2: doing a tar -cvzf /root/etc.2006.02.08.tar.gz /etc will work, as opposed to burning a dvd
<groogs> benJIman: i ***ume suse doesn't touch /root during an upgrade..? :)
<shuffle2> so is anyone here on the "inside" and know the expected date of 10.1? I see sometime after feb. 23.........
<benJIman> groogs: not afaik
<benJIman> groogs: unless you were silly and told it to do a clean format/install
<groogs> based on some reading, to upgrade, you have to boot from CD?
<aka_druid> yes
<benJIman> groogs: you don't have to
<benJIman> groogs: it is advisable
<aka_druid> now tell debian can do apt-get dist upgrade
<groogs> why is that? can't packages be upgraded with yum or whatever?
<groogs> aka_druid: well i kinda got used to that
<benJIman> groogs: yast system upgrade module does quite a good job (better than apt-get distupgrade)
<aka_druid> get used again
<benJIman> groogs: but there are problems inherant todoing it while system is running
<groogs> oh, ok so it is possible
<benJIman> groogs: for example many apps write configurations on exit
<groogs> benJIman: which is why the installer should stop them before upgrading.
<benJIman> groogs: so if you replace with new package that writes a new configuration format, then app exits cleanly and re-write sconfiguration = boom
<benJIman> groogs: that would mean stopping nearly everything, and neither rpm or deb has any way of checking that
<groogs> preinst
<groogs> just do it one-by-one
<aka_druid> groogs, the installer shoud not do anything. The things need to be done are set in pre and post istall scripts. Installer manages dependecies and thats all
<groogs> aka_druid: installer invokes pre/post scripts, does it not/
<benJIman> there isn't a trivial way of checking whether programs are running that might possibly edit the configuration files of the package you are installing groogs
<aka_druid> rpm does
<benJIman> groogs: the only way to be sure is to boot off the cd
<benJIman> or some other medium
<P-Luc_Auclair> anyone knows if it's normal that Q6 OGG in KControl produces 112kbps bitrate??
<aka_druid> dunno
<aka_druid> P-Luc_Auclair, you can set the minimum bitrate you want in oggenc
<benJIman> groogs: having said that upgrading while system is running works quite well, but not a good thing to recommend to newbies due to the potential problems, and they wouldn't know what todo if it went wrong
<groogs> benJIman: only the package you are upgrading should write to its configuration files ... if for some reason another package also writes to the same files (and i can't think of any apps that do that....) then the onus is on them to be smart about it and resolve conflicts, and not just wipe over a config without re-reading it if it's been changed
<P-Luc_Auclair> aka_druid, yeah, but I always thought q6 was 192 kbit/s
<groogs> yeah ok i can see that
<aka_druid> P-Luc_Auclair, check vorbis site... Im not sure, but there is a table or comparison somewhere
<P-Luc_Auclair> it's on wikipedia too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_Vorbis
<benJIman> groogs: sure in an ideal world every app would check if its data file format had changed completely, but this isn't an ideal world, and the package manager provides no method for checking that
<groogs> i dunno, mabe i'm just thinking too server-oriented
<benJIman> groogs: for server you'd run stable presumably
<benJIman> and update relatively infrequently
<aka_druid> s/server/completely wrong/
<benJIman> for important server SLES
<SuSEhelp> aka_druid thinks benJIman meant: groogs: for completely wrong you'd run stable presumably
<aka_druid> damn
<benJIman> wrong line
<benJIman> :p
<aka_druid> nod
<aka_druid> benJIman, actually its not that wrong heh
<groogs> ah yeah, the dual corporate / open thing ...
<benJIman> groogs: corperate version is open too
<benJIman> one of the problems with debian is needing todo big upgrades that break things regularly due to the rediculously long release cycle of stable, and the constant breakage of unstable and lack of backported security fixes for unstable
<groogs> benJIman: i never said debian was perfect.. if i thought that, i probably wouldn't be here, would i?
<aka_druid> tried ubuntu?
<groogs> it is nice on one hand to have a long cycle, as it means things DONT break (of course, you dont get all those nifty new features, either)
<groogs> aka_druid: yeah, a bit.. its okay. definately simple to get a desktop running
<aka_druid> ubuntu is ubuntu has done some fantastic improvements in linux usability
<aka_druid> !ubuntu
<SuSEhelp> Rumour has it ubuntu is ubuntu has done some fantastic improvements in linux usability
<aka_druid> erm
<benJIman> groogs: suse has regular stable releases and each release supported with security/bugfixes for 2 years, the enterprise products are supported for 5 years or more
<groogs> thats cool
<raden> suse & stable *grins*
<groogs> so 10.0 will be supported for two years now, and if 10.1 comes out in a few months, then it will also get supported for 2 years, while 10.0 will still continue to be supported (security backports) until its two years is up?
<benJIman> yes
<aka_druid> hopefully the security team has more than one member
<groogs> i guess thats where the benefit of having the corporate backing comes in ..
<benJIman> groogs: bugfixes and security updates are binary diffs against the stable versions too, so tiny compared to downloading full packages
<groogs> with something like debian, it is not like that probably just beacuse no one wants to do backports to the last 4 versions
<groogs> its too much work to volunteer..
<benJIman> well debian have too long release cycles to make it practical
<groogs> where as novell can just hire someone to do it
<aka_druid> seems that even make one distro is too much work to volunteer
<groogs> at the same time .. the whole "versioning" of a distro is a bit weird
<groogs> i mean, the distro really is just a bunch of packages
<benJIman> groogs: why's that
<groogs> if apache releases an upgrade, then apache gets a new version. its an application
<benJIman> groogs: yes, and if you're like debian you have a big mishmash and things may or may not work together
<groogs> how do you decide when enough packages have been upgraded that the distro now gets a new version?
<benJIman> groogs: that's what stable releases are for, package versions are frozen, heavily QA tested to interact properly and such, and versions kept frozen for that version of the distro
<benJIman> then it's a stable target for ISVs and security updates
<groogs> benJIman: why do you keep trolling on debian? i'm not trolling suse here, just asking questions
<aka_druid> groogs, you think world is debian and everything else "deviating" from debian is "strange"
<aka_druid> thats kinda funny
<groogs> benJIman: debian for the most part does a very good job of labelling packages ... ie, "Depends: somepackage > 4.3" or "conflcits: somepackage <2.0"
<benJIman> groogs: that's not the point
<sPiN> man the conditions on the slopes were sooo cherry tonight!
<groogs> aka_druid: i'm only comparing suse to debian here .. .i've used other distros as well
<benJIman> groogs: debian stable freezes too, perhaps even more strictly than suse's freezes
<sPiN> aside from them blowing snow its about as good as the east coast gets...
<benJIman> ie suse have supplementary (unsupported) upgrades to things like kde , X ,etc
<groogs> benJIman: yeah well i don't really like debian's way of doing that
<benJIman> groogs: well it's a good idea for the reasons I just said
<aka_druid> groogs, fyi thats not common to ahve "when x packages are updated, we say its a new version" This makes completely no sense
<benJIman> groogs: the only reason it doesn't really work with debian is that the release cycle is far too long
<groogs> and from what you've told me, i like the idea of suse's release cycles and lifetime
<benJIman> groogs: how any random combination of packages will interact cannot be guaranteed by any package manager
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