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Comments:
<0> Prohibited: By the way, the Perl way isn't making a $x and setting it to 1 - the Perl way is to do while(1) or for(;;), and then when you want it to stop, call last;
<0> Prohibited, like: my @socks; while(1) { push @socks, IO::Socket::INET->new(..); last if($#socks > 5); }
<1> I am still waiting for the inevitable "Okay, I have an array of sockets, how do I read and write to them?"
<0> lol
<0> Prohibited: Hint from BinGOs and me, if you want to asynchroniously read/write from all sockets, use POE ;)
<0> I think #perl is the channel with most support.
<0> I mean, that gives most support.
<0> perlbot karma #perl
<2> Karma for #perl: 7
<0> ha!
<0> perlbot karma ##php
<2> Karma for ##php: 1
<0> lol 0.o
<1> IO::Select is just gory to the beginner.
<0> Yeah, agreed.
<0> Since I started doing the all-wheel-readwrites-in-one-session, I really started to like POE a lot more.
<3> Not quite as gory as select() and vec().
<1> could fork for each client.
<0> eww
<1> Or threads >:)
<3> I fork a lot.
<4> nutt'in wrong with fork
<3> I don't like POE, or the way of programming in all those tiny states.
<1> fork you! And the process you spawned from!
<3> It's great for a single thing, like an IRC bot. But when the IRC bot also has a web interface, I much prefer using a different PID for that.
<4> one could always 'use forks;' and pretend they were threads.
<0> Lol
<0> I remember my first Perl project
<0> it was waaay too big for me by then
<3> If one thing breaks, other things still work.
<0> I wanted to make a seperate process for every "module", and one for every user
<3> And breaking things is harder even.
<3> dazjorz: That's probably overkill.
<1> Juerd: you can have separate processes with POE, IKC
<3> But doing everything in one POE kernel thingy is bad too, imnsho
<3> BinGOs: You can also run Perl on Windows ME, but that doesn't mean it's a sane idea.
<4> wheel::run
<0> Lol
<0> You can run a lot on Windows ME
<3> Conceptually different things should be explicitly separated in code.
<0> but even running itself is a bad idea.
<5> so say if I wanted to send data with what you said before, would it b3 @socks->send($data);
<0> even running Windows is a risk
<5> be *
<0> Prohibited: No
<6> no.
<3> dazjorz: Providing mains power to your computer is a risk, but worth it.
<4> POE is just a cooperative multitasking kernel. Why is that scarry?
<0> Prohibited: (Where) have you learned Perl?
<0> Juerd, Agreed =)
<3> cfedde: It's not scary. I don't like the way of programming.
<5> I'm still learning xD
<0> Prohibited, @socks is an array, it's a list of values
<5> so how would I send data? =/
<3> cfedde: Because there's never anything that can take more than a second, or code starts to randomly fail because other things depend on getting yielded to every once in a while. I don't like paying attention that closely.
<0> Prohibited: First, you cannot call a subroutine in all element
<0> elements*
<0> Prohibited: To get one element of the array, you want to use $socks[number here], for example $socks[0] for the first element and $socks[2] for the third
<3> For example, if I have a huge chunk of data to process, I'd hate to do that in many tiny state changes.
<3> I much prefer to fork off some processor, that reports back later.
<4> Juerd: right, it can lead to tight dependencies if you are not careful
<0> Prohibited, Then there's no such subroutine as send() in IO::Socket::INET
<1> Juerd: duh, that's what POE::Wheel::Run is for.
<4> Juerd: but such situations are why there is wheel::run
<0> Prohibited: To send data over a socket, you simply print to it, as in: print $socks[0] "Hello, I'm Prohibited"
<3> cfedde: The more care a programming language, or API, requires, the more error prone it is.
<3> cfedde: In that respect, I think it's like index maths.
<5> Yeah I got that part
<3> C-style for loop works, and is proven technology.
<3> It's well tested, and well known.
<3> But it's too damn easy to make mistakes that take dozens of minutes to debug.
<0> Prohibited: Not that you do NOT put a comma after the SOCKET if you're printing to it
<0> Prohibited: print $socks[0], "Hello" #WRONG
<4> Juerd: I agree that simple techniques are best. But sometimes you need to do more than one thing at a time.
<0> Prohibited: print $socks[0] "Hello" "I'm prohibited" #WRONG
<0> Prohibited: print $socks[0] "Hello", "I'm prohibited" #ok
<3> Yes, and when you need to do more than one thing at a time, most of the time you can easily factor it into two different processes.
<0> Prohibited: Many Perl newbs make that mistake. ;-)
<3> I like event based programming for things that are naturally events.
<4> Juerd: also agreed.
<0> Juerd++
<3> But some things are naturally imperative, and then mixing it with events only makes things awkward.
<3> I tend to run into a lot of the latter kind.
<4> POE is not the solution to every problem. Just like 'goto' is not the solution to every problem.
<3> And when I need to implement something on a certain network protocol, I usually hijack an existing non-perl solution for it, so that I don't have to care about the gory details.
<3> I don't like POE for IRC bots. I like irssi for IRC bots.
<3> I don't like POE for HTTP servers. I like apache for HTTP servers.
<3> etc.
<0> Yeah
<3> POE's a lot of goto, so that makes sense ;)
<3> (states feel like goto to me)
<0> Juerd, if you do more things in POE, eventually you start to get the hang of it, and you start understanding why things work like that in POE
<3> dazjorz: I've done lots of POE.
<3> Doesn't mean I like it.
<3> And the positional named arguments don't help either.
<0> Juerd: Sometimes, POE is just to make the thing you want to do muuuch easier.
<3> I find writing my own state machine a little easier than using POE. I usually don't its power and features.
<0> I still need a POE::Filter::DBD though
<0> Or is it already there?
<3> Really, I think POE is wonderful. But it's not my style, not my way of thinking.
<0> Yeah
<0> I can understand that
<0> hmm
<4> there are components for dealing with dbi but not a filter iirc
<3> If you need asynch DB access, it's probably something that you want to cache anyway. And when you want to cache, often you should pregenerate instead.
<0> I need to add a CPAN search feature to Dazbot... Or is there a bot that has one?
<3> dazjorz: What kind of filter would you want?
<0> Nah, just basically something to search the exact name of a CPAN module
<0> Oh, you mean a POE::Filter
<0> I meant POE::Filter::CBC
<3> POE::Filter::DBD, what would it do?
<0> Encryption filter
<3> Ah
<3> Can't you use an IO layer for that?
<7> Windows Genuine Advantage is great for the F/OSS community, I just gave away 5 Ubuntu discs to people who don't dare run windows anymore
<3> I'd love to do that
<0> IO layer?
<3> But I ran out of Breezy cds
<3> And am still waiting for Dapper cds
<0> They're free ^_^
<7> Juerd: I got the Dapper CDs in yesterday
<3> My burner's broken.
<7> Microsoft is just on time
<4> burn em baby! burn-em
<3> Ikarus_: Oh, that's good news. I think my order will arrive soon then.
<0> Actually I was kind of amazed to see how many 20 CD's actually is - the number looked smaller on the page.
<0> Or 15
<0> Yeah, think it was 15
<3> We had 50 cd's last time.
<7> dazjorz: I need 40 to last the whole year
<7> And I think more this year
<3> And now you can't ordermore than 10
<0> Well, I rarely use Ubuntu
<0> since I'm running Debian on my serve
<0> server*
<0> I'd really like to run Linux on this PC though :(
<0> it's just... the games...
<3> I'm going to ask for a payment gateway for people who want more. It's well worth the money, and I don't like burning many cds myself.
<0> I want to be able to do a good game from time to time
<3> (And the official looking cover helps when convincing people)
<3> dazjorz: Then dual boot.
<3> Use Windows only when you really, really need it.
<0> Juerd, Yeah, I did that a while
<0> And my IRC client just stopped updating the #perl window...
<8> dazjorz - then redefine 'good game' to include the good games available to you on linux, or get a specialized gaming machine -- say, a DS.
<3> And if you play games all day, just buy a second computer. Gamers are rich anyway.
<0> so now I'm looking at the "Channel monitor"
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