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Comments:
<0> might be a problem with the linker script
<0> I say pick another tutorial or write it yourself
<1> also with object file grouping - the linker is depend on the order of files - and it wont look back if you done tell it to
<2> a-priori: yea, I'm thinking write it myself based on examples
<2> a-priori: well, now at least I have something to do for the next 15 hours :D
<0> rutski: it's not hard to get a simple "hello world" kernel if you use grub
<2> a-priori: cool
<2> a-priori: Step #1 is definitely to read up creating a multi-boot sector and drawing to the screen
<0> for a "hello world", that's all the steps, really :)
<2> hehe, yea
<0> anyways, I've gotta run
<0> later
<2> a-priori: cool, ttyl
<0> some of us have day jobs :-P
<2> heh, yea
<2> I'm still 17 and living at home :-)
<2> a-priori: used to have an internship; but it got boring so now I just stay home and study programming and CS
<3> hehe
<2> also used to have a job maintain a web based system for an SAT tutoring companies billing system
<2> that was _hell_
<2> so I quit
<0> ... sounds pretty much like me when I was just starting with this stuff
<0> I think I was 18 though
<2> cool
<2> a-priori: hey, do you have AIM? Maybe we can chat later.
<2> hey
<2> this is weird
<2> I ran mbck on both initrd.img-2.6.8-3-386 and vmlinuz-2.6.8-3-386
<2> but neither of them seem to have multiboot headers
<3> um, neither of those are actually bzImage?
<1> linux isnt multiboot
<1> linux is just a plain olld boodimage wich has its own kickstart code
<1> grub just puts it in place, then runs into them using realmode
<2> ronny: ah, so is the "initrd" file the kickstart part?
<1> no
<2> hmm
<1> initrd isn not kickstart
<1> initrd is a comressed filesystem for initial boot code
<2> ah, I see
<1> its used if your kernel has not all stuff needed to boot from hd
<2> well, I'm reading grub's "Multiboot Specification" info page now; so hopefully it'll all make sense soon
<1> could be stuf like filesystem modules
<2> ronny: but an initrd is a grub thing
<2> not a linux specific thing
<2> right?
<1> initrd is also linux specific
<1> initrd is short for initial ramdisk
<2> yea, that much I know :-)
<2> but it seems that there's support for it in grub
<3> why is everyone so obsessed with grub anyway?
<2> I mean, there's an "initrd /boot/initrd.img" thing in my menu.lst
<1> Amanita_Virosa: not dealing with all the **** from realmode is great
<2> so grub must know something about it
<1> rutski: grub just puts it in place
<3> meh, realmode is a dream compared to some 8-bit systems i've had the dubious pleasure of programming
<2> or can grub accept arbitrary commands which it then p***es on to the OS being booted?
<1> Amanita_Virosa: still not having to deal with it is great
<3> heh i suppose
<3> i rather enjoy it
<2> ronny: I really should finish reading the grub info docs before I try to understand any of this
<1> rutski: noppe - it just puts the data in place, and writes the adress of the initrd at a specific adress
<2> ronny: and it does the same with vmlinuz I take it?
<1> the linux booting is a special case anyway
<1> vmlinux is the kernel
<1> grub just pits it where it belongs ( since grub knows how to deal with a linux kernel)
<1> then it umps into it like it should
<3> i should compress my kernel, when it comes time to write another one
<2> ronny: so grub does "special favors" for linux; favors it does not do for other OSes?
<1> yeah
<3> linux is a major os
<1> bsd just supports multiboot
<1> and windows is booted by the partition bootsector
<2> cool
<2> yea, which is chainloaded by grub?
<1> chainload just tells - load this piece, then go to real mode and run it
<2> which is pretty much what happens when grub isn't involved at all right?
<3> pretty much
<1> yaeh
<2> wait a sec... so what does the computer do if grub isn't there?
<1> well - run the thing wich is in the bootsector
<2> define "run"
<3> it loads the MBR from the HDD, or the bootsector from the floppy
<3> and then jumps to it
<3> in realmode
<3> i forget the standard load address, but i've got it written down somewhere
<2> does it load it into any specific place in memory?
<3> yes, i believe so
<2> I just read that real mode can only address 1MB of ram
<2> is that true?
<1> yeah
<3> mostly, yes
<1> but there is the infamouse unreal mode, wich can access more
<3> there are other ways too
<2> that ****s
<1> well - x86 is a mess
<2> heh
<3> v86 mode and using hooks to jump back and forth from real to pmode
<3> ya
<2> ronny: what's not a mess then?
<3> heh somewhat
<3> ARM is pretty clean
<1> and with mess i mean something that eats your brain just to vomit it
<1> arm is clean, ppc is neat
<1> and x86 is just stupid
<2> ronny: ppc ***embler still looks like voodoo to me though
<3> try blackfin ***embler
<1> it is voodoo
<2> ronny: I've only ever studied x86 and x86-64 in GAS
<1> i hate amd for doing x86-64 - its a step backward
<1> dammit - once in a while you have to screw compatibility casue a chain of compatibilities creates real messes
<3> heh, i'm kinda fond of the x86 instruction set... it's just so bizarre. :P
<3> heh, apple went x86. and microsoft went PPC. strange world.
<2> ronny: but can't x86-64 act exactly like plain old x86 via compat mode?
<3> of course.
<3> that's the point
<3> although i've heard that x86-64 mode removes support for vm86 mode
<1> rutski: all the stupid messes x86 created where just preserved for the furure ;P
<4> Ms went PPC?
<1> linus__^: xbox2 is a 3xppc system
<4> i see
<2> Amanita_Virosa: vm86 == compat mode?
<1> no
<3> no
<3> vm86 mode is a virtualized real mode
<3> it's used for dos emulation in windows, for example
<3> yep, all three current generation game consoles are ppc-based
<2> oh, wow
<2> weird
<2> well, that's good
<3> tho Cell is a bit unusual
<1> ppc rocks - tonns of registers and a realy neat virtual memory controller
<2> I don't know how the hell XBox v1 ran all those games on the crappy hardware that it had
<3> xbox 360's processor is just a triple-core ppc
<3> but Cell is a weird one
<1> cell istn weird
<3> i can't wait to play around with Cell tho
<1> cell is a ht-ed ppc core with 8 extra vector units
<2> ronny: yea, the next step for me in asm is definitely to learn ppc asm and to read Motorola's docs on the arch.
<3> the SPUs look neat
<2> ronny: it is Motorola that releases the docs, right?
<1> dont ask me much about ppc - never had the time to take a deep look
<3> well, they're not exactly vector units
<1> just enough to know its entirely superior to x86
<3> i mean, they have vector units
<2> ronny: hehe, I see
<2> ronny: all I've ever head about PPC was Apple's G5 propaganda
<2> ronny: so I think it rocks too :-)
<2> (Apple does good propaganda)
<3> but the SPU's are somewhat more than just a vector unit
<3> they're each turing complete
<2> They're all like "Holy ****! Millions Of Registers! It's Awesome!1!!!!1!! Now but it from us for twice what it's worth!"
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