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Comments:
<0> shouldn't that be "monotonically nondecreasing order"
<1> lol, good luck with that
<0> nevermind, wrong function
<1> you will always have to learn more langauges
<1> might as well accept that in CS or software engineering
<2> Umm not necessarily.. I can make conscious decisions to work in areas where one or more languages are predominant
<1> I'm talking over the long term
<2> you must be young :)
<1> 10 years from now Java will be relegated to something like COBOL status
<2> in 10 years, so will I
<3> karstensrage: I wish that were true at my company. I'm expected to know whatever language it takes
<4> I was wondering if the type system differences were significant in that preference
<2> xarq: I align myself with those in the company that like Java. there are those that are obsessed with Python which is why I get unlucky sometimes... what baffles me is design that incorporates the limitations imposed by Python rather than choose implementation details that don't limit the design
<2> Zhivago: I totally dig Generics and the strong typing in Java 5
<4> python is a rather clumsy language, but java's generics by type erasure seem rather poor ...
<1> python is strongly typec
<1> d
<1> and my typing is nonexistant. :)
<2> Adamant: only about 5% error rate
<2> I'm preparing myself for vacation where I will not have a computer for 3 weeks
<1> 98% uptime for 5 connected system = uptime pain. :)
<2> Zhivago: really I am just used to C and Java... its not that I have anything particularly bad to say about Python itself.. its just that I don't like languages for the sake of languages...
<2> Lisp is different because it offers a new way, a clearer way, of thinking about problems
<4> or at east a more dangerous way
<2> Zhivago: indeed because sometimes I can no longer think about things in the languages I have to use
<2> but I do have to say that if you drink the Java koolaid the libraries are VERY rich
<2> I am a bit frustrated at the lack of easy to use libraries in Lisp but I am willing to chalk that up to my inexperience
<4> it's more due to their llack
<4> but it's becoming less so
<0> "only the creatively intelligent can prosper in the Lisp world" [rpg] ... any other well known quotes that are good at using reverse psychology like that one
<5> "Lisp is a programmer amplifier" - not exactly reverse psychology, but still meaning "if you are a bad programmer, your lisp will be worse"
<6> therp: I like that, where did you find it?
<5> I think paulgraham has a quotes page on his website.
<7> morning
<5> oh but it doesn't seem to come from that
<5> ah, pg maintains two quotes pages. quotes/lisp quotes. beach: http://www.paulgraham.com/quotes.html
<7> apparently it was first said about Forth
<3> therp: doesn't that mean if you are a bad programmer you will do even worse in lisp?
<5> xarq: right, and I agree with that :)
<3> therp: sounds like a good quote for people who say "I tried lisp for x weeks and I'm still stuck in the mud"
<0> can't imagine a comeback/reply to the rpg quote, besides silence
<0> although it might prompt a challenge to define 'creatively intelligent'
<5> don't hit the nonbelievers too hard.
<2> rr-- sounds too much like 'intelligent design'
<4> I believe in 'intelligent falling'
<4> but I can't say that I've seen much 'intelligent design'
<6> mvilleneuve: hello, how is Lisp hacking going?
<4> I believe in 'intelligent atheists' but sometimes it's difficult.
<4> but if god can manage falling, then he can surely manage infidels
<0> i think the rpg quote is a last-resort weapon reserved for when conventional ones have not worked
<8> q
<9> r
<10> good morning
<8> Oops, sorry, keyboard cleaning...
<10> good morning
<10> pjb: you can continue here
<8> Done ;-)
<11> !vi
<12> minion, vi
<13> Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``vi''.
<3> minion doesn't believe in vi
<14> minion, emacs
<13> emacs: Emacs is the One True Editor. http://www.cliki.net/emacs
<14> yeah! OTE!
<6> someone should tell minion about Climacs
<1> minion, what about editing inodes with magnets?
<13> a man, a plan, a canal - panama
<15> How well does climacs handle long lines these days?
<6> nyef: the buffer protocol has no problems with it. The display part might still be problematic.
<7> beach: no Lisp hacking these days... no time at work, Internet connection broken at home :(
<7> (but then even if the connection got fixed, it's much too hot to be doing anything that requires brain activity)
<16> morning
<13> jsnell, memo from michaelw: ***uming the 4x overhead is due to large (unicode) characters, how feasible would it be to add a "byte-string" string type and an 8-bit character subtype? i believe the spec allows this.
<16> minion: memo for michaelw: that already exists (well, for a 7-bit character type. see simple-base-string). but you can't do IO directly with the right now
<13> Remembered. I'll tell michaelw when he/she/it next speaks.
<6> mvilleneuve: I understand. Make sure it cools down in the next few weeks, please. Is the Internet connection problem due to free.fr?
<6> hello jsnell
<0> if you wrote a PARSE-MARTIAN-INTEGER function, would you name the corresponding output function WRITE- , PRINT-, or FORMAT-MARTIAN-INTEGER
<6> I would write a method on print-object
<17> PRINT-OBJECT method, specialised on MATIAN-INTEGER?
<8> Yes, then (format t "~A ~:* ~S" martian) would work.
<0> ok, but say you need to be able to specify keyword args to the printing function, which the PRINT-OBJECT method approach can't do
<0> maybe i can avoid this burning question but just defining a function to be called by a ~/name/ FORMAT directive
<0> by
<8> Of course. It's real nice. You can invent all kind of meaning for the arguments ~x,y,z:@/martian:format/
<0> that way, martian integers become absorbed by FORMAT
<15> ... Can FORMAT handle printing in base -2?
<8> (format t "~B" (- n))
<15> Hrm... -2 is not of type (INTEGER 2 36)...
<8> or do you mean (format t "~B" (lognot n))
<15> No, I mean that the sign of the digit weights changes for each bit.
<8> You'd need a notation for them. Let's see what we have in unicode...
<8> Emacs doesn't combine the modifiers... "0" Or do we need some more unicode control codes?
<8> We could use dignbats negative circled digits.
<15> Why would you need more notation?
<8> Well, negative digits are more useful when you mix them with positive digits.
<8> They allow you to do carryless computations.
<18> You are speaking at cross purposes.
<15> Apparently so.
<18> And both things are discussed in Knuth within a couple of dozen pages. :-)
<8> -5 = -8 +4 -1 = 1101 Is it what you want?
<18> pjb, at least that's my understanding of what nyef was intending.
<15> ... Hrm... The standard defines a radix as being an integer from 2 to 36, inclusive... but doesn't appear to -use- that definition anywhere besides parse-integer.
<19> *print-base*
<19> (at a guess)
<9> gnight folks
<15> Oh, sorry, yes, there it is.
<15> That's a little disappointing...
<8> Negative base is like having negative digits, only at odd positions.
<8> The problem, when parsing them, is that you need to start from the lsb.
<17> Hm, wouldn't the cl***ic method of "initialize accumulator to 0; for each position, multiply acc by base, multiply digit by base, add to acc, next digit" work equally well? Might need an odd/even counter for a negative base and a negation phase, actually.
<8> Right, and multiply by -1 at then end when you've seen an odd (or even) number of digits. That could work.
<0> I believe radix being (INTEGER 2 36) is used in DIGIT-CHAR and DIGIT-CHAR-P
<0> but in case of bijective base-k numbering (e.g., spreadsheet columns), one has to allow one's radix to be (INTEGER 1 35) or (INTEGER 1 26) instead
<20> has anyone tried generating html output on the LaTeX mcclim manual ? I'm not so familiar with either the format or the tools, not sure if it would be as easy to generate html as it is to generate ps with the bunch
<20> could try here, but it looks like it'll be a bit before the ps manual finishes building, heh
<20> trying to both compile climacs and its deps, and to build the manual, simultaneously, on a 366 mhz box, i realize i'm up for a wait; figured that both might as well be taken care of, at one time
<21> What do you guys think of the UNIX Haters Handbook? :)
<22> got a url ?
<23> it's a bit bitter
<22> n/m I'll ask the oracle
<22> hrm.. well for one it is 10 years old, both platforms have changed alot in 10 years.
<23> "both platforms"?
<22> except of course the APIs in unix, which have been very stable in comparison to the windows APIs
<8> rkrush: The Art of UNIX Programming is more interesting. http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/
<21> Yeah, both platforms?
<12> Lisp machines and unixes?
<23> dcnstrct: i don't think the book advocates windows, or any other platform
<24> dcnstrct: if you think the Unix-Haters' handbook is even remotely about Windows, you are extremely mistaken
<23> it just rants (validly and variously) about unix's failings
<21> pjd: But that would be conceiding defeat, wouldn't it? ;)
<1> a lot of the stuff it rants about has been taken care of
<23> "defeat"? :)
<1> remember, it was written late 80's/early 90's IIRC
<23> pointing out problems is not admitting defeat
<23> it's paving the way for progress
<25> also, venting anger works, as a kind of therapy
<15> Adamant: Such as... X being a disaster? NFS being brain-dead? Sun boxes booting quickly?
<25> haha
<15> (Well, one out of three isn't bad...)
<20> rkrush: imo, the unix hater's handbook is humorous; iirc, there's some historical information in there, also
<1> NFSv4 is not too awful from what I have heard
<24> It's true that the occurrences of hopelessly munged e-mails is less
<18> Indeed, Sun boxes boot far from quick these days.
<25> also, the foot note about programs crashing the boxes on invalid input seems to not have been taken care of completely (:
<15> Adamant: Now -that's- damning with faint praise!
<24> however, how many people have ">From" in their e-mails today?
<24> I know I certainly do
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