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Comments:
<0> its probably risky
<0> but it works with linux
<1> unfo: Why did you ask me if I can speak French?
<2> headmonkey, i think you are purchasing your loss of rights
<3> Emmanuel_Chanel: i saw ????? ?? ????????? and ***ume you needed to be directed to foreign-language channel.
<4> shadowarts, i know, because you dont sell software licenses...your not a publisher...if you were, and your familys income depended on it, you would want the freedom to license your software as you saw fit....and im sure you would protect yourself, same as ms does
<3> headmonkey: i may have one again in 2 weeks.
<5> i saw Emmanuel_Chanel write hebrew in the channel when he first spoke
<1> Oh, I understand. I used Hebrew. I thought this a UTF-8 channel.
<5> it was hebrew
<3> lo_tek: i didnt. :)
<3> Emmanuel_Chanel: maybe it is, but irssi(1) isnt UTF-8 :)
<5> i saw the characters, i guess this suse 10 box has 'em, heh
<1> I tried to say "Shalom, Sarah! Are you from Sweden?".
<6> one thing to make a living but to be a billionare is bs
<2> headmonkey, yeah but when they say i can reverse engineer their software, its like panasonic saying i cant mofiy my vcr
<3> Emmanuel_Chanel: ah. maybe it's then best to prefix your UTF-8 comment with Sarah-Away: in English. :)
<5> Emmanuel_Chanel, it's not the channel that has to be utf-8 compliant, but the software on the machine
<4> unfo, goto micrsoft research website....they have a package called "detours" that lets you intercept windows API function calls, approx 1600+ of them....you can redirect data comming from/going to any microsoft application without the source code to the os or the app
<3> davidjohnston: welcome back, did you find your answer yet?
<7> unfo: no I just got dc'd...router needed resetting
<1> OK.
<3> headmonkey: cool, will this let me reverse-engineer ntfs tho?
<6> why is Sarah-Away always set as Sarah-Away
<4> shadowarts, its perfectly legal for you to reverse engineer anything you want....so ignore what they say concerning reverse engineering
<6> never see her at her pc
<1> Right that I asked Sarah-Away the question.
<8> unfo ask linux-ntfs project how they do it
<7> unfo: you have any ideas
<2> headmonkey, then your breaking the EULA
<4> unfo, perhaps
<9> headmonkey: you are doing it illegaly then
<4> no your not...because the government laws supercede contract laws
<3> davidjohnston: try asking again, preferably all in one "IRC logical line", if nobody answers you, try the appropriate Linux mailing list, forum, or Usenet newsgroup.
<6> no your not
<4> so just because microsofts license says you cant reverse engineer it, doesnt mean that you cant...you can
<2> headmonkey, what law says i can reverse engineer/
<4> they cant enforce that part of their license
<7> unfo: yea I will....just thought i would take a chance
<6> if you design somethign with reverse engineering your trying to acomplish the same goal with different steps
<2> headmonkey, yeah but DMCA also says your cant remove DRM from content
<3> davidjohnston: long questions are not ideal for IRC. also, you have to know IRC etiquette to get the most out of IRC. :)
<2> is it possible... yes
<6> if you don't have Microsofts source code then there is no way to copy them
<2> is it legal... no
<2> cant even reverse engineer drm
<6> ya you can linux is open source
<6> who is Microsoft going to sue
<3> headmonkey: is "detours" like strace but lets you change the parameters before the kernel call is made?
<4> you can reverse engineer software without source code...but it is difficult
<8> reverse engineering with source code would be.. forward engineering heh
<3> Kevin`: is it not safe to ***ume they do it by hard work and banging their heads vs. the wall? :)
<4> unfo, yes...it lets you redirect an api call to your function....which can modify/inspect its parameters, before p***ing them to the original function or discarding them completely
<6> lol
<0> crazy hard to reverse it with out the source code
<3> headmonkey: cool. even strace cant do that.
<4> "1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with othe
<4> r programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title."
<3> headmonkey: that was a mammoth huge paste.
<0> BUt i though some Microsoft soruce code was leaked on the internet
<8> unfo I think that's a safe ***umption
<0> A little while back
<3> Kevin`: poor them...
<4> thats a quote from some page at harvard.edu
<0> Windows 2000 source code was leaked onto the internet wasnt it
<0> ?
<6> ask the chieanse they have their souce code
<3> headmonkey: it is proper to quote less or to use www.pastebin.com
<3> oops
<4> so go ahead...buy a copy of an MS product...and reverse engineer it...its legal
<3> headmonkey: scratch that
<6> thethey know all of microsofts future plans
<3> davidjohnston: it is proper to quote less or to use www.pastebin.com
<8> MindOfChaos should discreetly hand that to the linux-ntfs people, in person, in a dark alley..
<4> i know, sorry for the huge paste, but i thought you'd be glad to know you can legally reverse engineer whatever you want...its how AMD got a cpu ;)
<2> headmonkey, its says technological method, not contract
<2> but idk
<6> good example
<6> headmonkey,
<7> unfo: yes I know...I am honestly just pushed for time and tried to cheat and get a quick answer
<4> reverse engineering is legal....ask your attorney...he'll get you the exact law concerning it
<6> reverse the x86 code to make a new cpu
<3> davidjohnston: sorry, i realize you did not do that US DoL paste. i did not mean what I said about pastebin to apply to you.
<6> cars are reversed engineered
<4> they didnt just reverse engineer the code...they sliced open the cpu's and examined them under microscopes
<9> headmonkey: no you cant if you agree to it
<9> because of...
<0> They sliced open Intel cpus?
<9> patents
<7> unfo: no worries then
<0> wow I didnt know that
<4> poningru, look...contract law does not supercede other laws
<6> will intel will have a faster chip then amd come this summer
<9> I know
<3> (davidjohnston: headmonkey made a larger paste than is traditional on IRC. but since he's an oldbie and must know when exceptions are ok, im letting the issue slide.)
<8> poningru apparently you can, because it is done
<6> and amd don't have any new plans for a new chip right now
<9> headmonkey: its because of patents you cant just reverse engineer things
<8> just do it, ms can't arrest everyone
<4> poningru, if im a landlord...i cant make you do certain things just because you sign a lease, if those things are otherwise legal or illegal to do
<9> I know that
<7> unfo: and besides I had an epiphany and figured it out
<9> jeez
<4> poningru, you can...if you dont believe me, ask your attorney
<3> MindOfChaos: Andrew 'bunnie' Hwang(sp?) opened up some xbox chips (southbridge?) in hot fuming acid.
<2> brian|lfs, thast because AMD's chip is perfect :D
<4> a patent does not protect against reverse engineering
<9> headmonkey: reverse engineering will only work if the protection that is used is trade secret
<4> it protects against copying a design without improving upon it and selling it
<6> ya you can
<9> if the protection used is patent then no you cant reverse engineer
<6> your only infrineging on a patent if you break all the rules
<4> poningru, your misinformed
<3> MindOfChaos: see bunnie's book "Hacking the Xbox" which is available under a free content license though Im not sure where. or see the appropriate sites maybe.
<6> if you break jsut one its still legal
<3> davidjohnston: cool!
<0> oh ok
<3> what?
<6> say you have rule 1
<0> All my computers are Intel at the moment
<6> a b c d e
<6> and you break one a
<6> its still legal
<0> Just because i get a special on getting Intel computers
<6> you would have to break b c and d to
<0> with pentium inside or Celerons
<4> poningru, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering
<3> headmonkey: i saw your apology before... dont worry
<4> poningru, it says "reverse engineering a patented item CAN BE infringement" ... it doesnt say that IT IS infringement, and there is a difference
<9> read on
<9> read the rest of the sentence
<3> headmonkey: i ***ume you are not quoting from the DMCA :)
<4> it is legal to reverse engineer anything you want for educational purposes
<3> even by the DMCA????
<9> headmonkey: thats just it
<9> dmca makes it illegal
<9> hence dmca being unconstitutional
<9> but its never come to that
<9> err s/to that/supreme court
<3> Sarah-Away: welcome back, can i ask, are you always nick:away? :)
<2> headmonkey, yes DMCA makes it illegal to even reverse engineer drm for educational purposes
<8> can't have people knowing what their computers are doing
<3> no sirree... esp. given the RIAA's potential losses
<6> shes away she isn't going to answer lol
<3> and MPAA.
<6> so you will never find out
<3> brian|lfs: u never know :)
<4> well if you want to reverse engineer a filesystem, you dont need to reverse engineer the software...so as to the discussion before, it can still be done
<6> you are always going to wonder
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