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Comments:
<Dagmar> ...and the operating system is suppose to already have it's *own* security.
<bleenshaker> gay^
<CHodapp> Dagmar, so, obviously, the best solution is to make the OS and the browser the same thing!
<Sneaky_Bastard> Dagmar: it's the micro$haft answer to security: don't allow the end-user to do anything at all.
<theUg> Dagmar, that is what Opera tries to do.
<martian67> hey Dagmar
<Dagmar> theUg: No generally on Linux we don't have to worry about This Week's Worm giving a trojan installer a foothold to behin with
<Sneaky_Bastard> (except "What we tell you!"
<CHodapp> Sneaky_Bastard, and the odd part is that the end-user can still do everything :\
<Dagmar> theUg: So basically Opera will never be extensible using that approach
<Dagmar> theUg: ...and I'm pretty sure I could still pull the same stunt with Opera
<theUg> Dagmar, I aagree, but there is an arguement, that it is because hax0rs do not give a **** about linux. yet.
<stylish> anyone here got a desktop screenshot
<Dagmar> You can't have both mandatory applet signing AND a completely open framework
<Dagmar> theUg: Umm... that's just wrong. Hax0rs actually USE linux.
<martian67> lol
<martian67> :)
<theUg> Dagmar Yes you could manipulate textual config files if they were in default locations.
<bleenshaker> ^m0ron
<Dagmar> theUg: The point being?
<Dagmar> theUg: everything's going to be vulnerable to that
<stylish> hello
<Dagmar> It's not something you can reasonably use to ***ign blame to an application
<theUg> Dagmar, Opera is extensible through user request. And as it is now, it packs ****load of features in the smaller download than bare FF. Go figure. ;)
<Dagmar> theUg: Like I've said, ,I'm pretty sure I can shoehorn extentions into Opera without ever having to run Opera to do it
<Dagmar> theUg: A more accurate argument is that Opera isn't vulnerable to the same sort of issue because the spammers don't yet care about Opera
<stylish> opera ****s bigtime
<theUg> Dagmar, there is always a solution, maybe not an easy/convenient one, but there is.
<Dagmar> theUg: No, quite frequently there is no solution at all because the problem wasn't properly defined in the first place.
<Dagmar> Blaming an application for allowing the operating system to misuse it is a chicken and egg issue
<CHodapp> stylish, I used to use it, it beat the pants off of IE, but some pages never rendered right
<theUg> Dagmar, I will not argue against possibility of hacking Opera, for I am no security expert or trying ax0r, but I deem it as more secure.
<Dagmar> Good for you, but what you're attempting to say Firefox should be doing is unworkable
<stylish> CHodapp : IE ****en kicks ***
<martian67> theUg, on what evidence do you base that fact?
<Dagmar> Actually, now that I've looked at it again, I'm quite sure I could do the very same thing to OPera
<martian67> besides your own beleifs
<theUg> Dagmar, it is not the blame question. It is the question of dumb user on dumb OS and how do we protect it.
<theUg> martian67 what you said is a pleonasm. lol
<Dagmar> theUg: the answer is to fix the OS
<CHodapp> stylish, IE causes me more trouble than is necessary...when I can run it, which right now I can't
<martian67> theUg, i ment outside your own beleifs
<martian67> eg external evidence
<theUg> Dagmar, the problem is, that in the objective reality people are still running W98 and 5.0 IE
<Dagmar> theUg: And apparently living off food stamps
<Dagmar> Which objective reality would this be, by the way?
<n0kia> hi
<not_root> so I want to set up my PC to boot up and start up X right away. there should be no wm and only a console, roottail, and a torsmo. the console should be at a tty1 style login prompt. how can I make X start, then put a login prompt in an xterm ?
<stylish> CHodapp : i use kconquer
<Dagmar> The web servers I have access to tell me pretty clearly that 98/IE5 users are a definite minority
<not_root> oh, and X should run as if an unpriveleged user started it
<martian67> then put a login prompt in an xterm ? << you cant
<Sneaky_Bastard> ok, I had screwed up my ignore settings for bleen is all
<martian67> not_root oh, and X should run as if an unpriveleged user started it << thats also impossible
<Dagmar> martian67: You can always just run login
<theUg> martian67, I understand what you meant. As I am saying, I am no expert, but Opera Software ASA touts it as being more secure for it is not allowing custom extensions period.
<martian67> Dagmar, lol thats lame :)
<martian67> not_root, what i mean is, x cannot run without a setuid script somwhere
<not_root> martian67, why is it impossible ? on my other PCs I type "startx" all the time
<martian67> not_root, thats using a setuid script
<not_root> martian67, alright then, that works
<Dagmar> theUg: There's the problem then. The Opera people are ***uming that they can supply *all* rendering needs
<martian67> not_root, distro?
<Dagmar> That's all well and good, but their browser is still just as vulnerable to having it's files modified through normal operating system mechanisms
<theUg> Dagmar, in relation to food stamps. If you pkaying around in GTK or whatever it is one thing. When at stake are money and valuable information, everything matters.
<not_root> martian67, I haven't chosen one yet, but I'm thinking of using arch
<Dagmar> In the use case you've been citing, Opera is no more secure than FF.
<martian67> not_root, it is possible
<Dagmar> theUg: People who aren't living off food stamps have upgraded from Windows98 by now, man
<martian67> but if you want baby steps you wont find them here
<martian67> snoop around /etc/rc.d/
<theUg> Dagmar, well, not so fast, young man. There is plenty of those people.
<martian67> and look at .xinitrc in your home directory
<Sneaky_Bastard> Dagmar: why do you continue talking to these obvious trolls ?
<not_root> martian67, so using an init script can make X start on boot ?
<martian67> yes
<Sneaky_Bastard> whether they are paid shills or not ?
<martian67> very easily
<Dagmar> theUg: You saying "Plenty" doesn't make them a majority case
<martian67> not_root, just have it run a script that is setuid to your username
<theUg> Dagmar, hell there is still corporate networks that run v4 browsers.
<martian67> that runs startx
<Dagmar> If you're still using Windows98, all I can say is that I'm truly sorry for you
<bleenshaker> Dagmar: whats A "normal system mechanism" idiot
<martian67> the rest can be taken care of by .xinitrc
<Dagmar> theUg: Those people generally pay me quite a bit of money to fix their stuff. I'm quite aware.
<CHodapp> bleenshaker, screw off...
<theUg> Dagmar I will quote Zeldman: "It's like saying 'small percentage of Chinese'"
<not_root> martian67, alright, thank you :)
<Dagmar> theUg: So what exactly does the use of 98 have to do with it?
<martian67> not_root, no problem :)
<Dagmar> Or is this just another way of trying to drag the argument back into troll-space
<theUg> Zaragoza, woo hoo! Down goes Barca.
<not_root> martian67, now I need to work on the login thing, it MUST be possible..
<Sneaky_Bastard> Dagmar: this technique is called "moving the goalposts"
<martian67> not_root,
<Dagmar> Sneaky_Bastard: This is why I'm calling him on it
<Sneaky_Bastard> they aren't ever going to conceed you any point of argument
<martian67> just use xdm
<Sneaky_Bastard> not EVER
<martian67> or kdm
<martian67> or gdm
<martian67> its a graphical X login
<martian67> and should do what you want
<Sneaky_Bastard> that's what makes them trolls and/or paid shills
<martian67> and it will look less hackish
<theUg> Dagmar, we talking security, no? There is ideal world of Dagmar, where everyone uses latest updated linux, and sad, gloomy, stoopid real world
<Dagmar> theUg: Which has what to do with what?
<martian67> Dagmar, old joke.. "a company distributes linux, what they loose in the short term they will make up in volume"
<martian67> :)
<Dagmar> As a troll, you are SO small-fry
<kokoko1> anyone knows about working squid?
<not_root> martian67, I don't want ?dm, I just want a console and some logging information available, so what I need is an xterm and some other non-interactive apps
<kokoko1> i have simple question
<Dagmar> kokoko1: Many people, what'cha need?
<Sneaky_Bastard> Dagmar: he's reading from a standard issue M$ marketing campaign briefing sheet
<martian67> not_root, i would be suprised if you could do it
<theUg> Dagmar, with FF security, OS security, information security, user security.
<Sneaky_Bastard> which I don't think he even understands.
<Dagmar> Ad hominem attacks qualify as a deliberate fallacy.
<martian67> but xdm can just log you in and run xterm
<martian67> and that other program
<Dagmar> Back into the ignore list with you, trollface
<martian67> you wanted
<martian67> sans a window-manager
<kokoko1> say if i deleted swap.state file from /cache directory, do squid will start with clean cache or rebuild the swap.state file from the objects store in /cache dir?
<Dagmar> Sneaky_Bastard: he can read?
<theUg> Sneaky_Bastard I care **** all about windows. MS can talk for itself
<Sneaky_Bastard> well, on the 3rd grade level those are written for, sure.
<martian67> or with a very basic one like twm that has zero fetures :)
<Dagmar> kokoko1: God only knows. I'd just run the -z invocation again to be sure the cache indexes aren't broken.
<kokoko1> Dagmar, any idea how to contact God?
<theUg> Sneaky_Bastard I am trying to promote debate out of the real world happening, but I get evangelism in return.
<martian67> not_root, you arnt going to be able to build something
<martian67> where you can log in
<kokoko1> may be sms?
<Dagmar> kokoko1: Most of those problems you don't have to worry about if you either a) don't go messing around inside Squid's cache directory or b) start it by wiping the cachedirs and regenerating them with squid -z each time
<Sneaky_Bastard> Pitr from UserFriendly: "root? God? What is difference?"
<Sneaky_Bastard> :D
<not_root> martian67, xterm -e login :)
<martian67> not_root, because they are already in x
<Dagmar> kokoko1: Between the two I'll take "a) not messing around with squid's cache directories"
<martian67> they can just start another xterm
<martian67> and get around your lame*** login
<martian67> :)
<martian67> and login needs to be root to run
<martian67> so gg
<martian67> :)
<kokoko1> Dagmar, I'm getting this problem , read this thread
<kokoko1> http://www.squid-cache.org/mail-archive/squid-users/200410/0384.html
<martian67> also login needs to be spawned by the sh that is spawned by init
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