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Comments:
<0> mathrick: lang codepoints. sorry for being unclear
<1> raph: have you configured fonts for every language in firefox like their UI allows?
<2> Fontconfig should not just have a "Unicode range blocking" mechanism -- It should really have an Arbitrary Range Blocking mechanism -- why limit it only to the Unicode ranges?
<3> nim-nim: it doesn't actually allow that, it crashes and burns horribly when you actually attempt that
<0> nim-nim: no, i almost never touch configuration, as a matter of principle. 90+% of users won't either
<1> raph: so you see getting the default distribution setup right is the most important problem
<0> nim-nim: i absolutely agree
<1> mathrick: just proves my point
<4> edtrager: "unicode range" as set of codepoints; it is not limited to a "Unicode block", like all of Greek.
<3> nim-nim: in fact, I had to reset config after I tried that once, because setting it to anything broke things in a bad way
<5> nim-nim: very true
<6> I do - I have more than one chinese fonts and more than one japanese fonts on my system usually, and I have my preferences.
<0> hin-tak is in a small minority :)
<6> mostly I want to use one font with sufficient coverage.
<3> firefox simply isn't what we want to follow when it comes to effective FC utilisation
<6> rather than let firefox mix-and-match and having sentences starting in one font and ending in another.
<1> hin-tak: but did you change settings for greek or armenian?
<6> no :-).
<6> can't read them/
<1> if you didn't you're only doing normal-case "changing the defaults for my language"
<1> not the insane stuff moz people want us to do
<3> also, now that discussion has slowed down a bit, I want to see who's up to the hard task, ie. reviewing all of different distros' fonts.confs (and most importantly, their snippets), deciding what's worth it, folding into one recommended config and pushing to distros
<3> there are several levels at which it works:
<6> blending is tricky.
<1> mathrick: we have a fearless leader :-D
<4> we got a page already with material
<3> simosx: it's incomplete\
<3> 1) fonts.conf -- here pretty much everyone just uses stock file from keithp, give or take few entries on aliases list as appropriate for fonts shipped by the distro
<4> mathrick: it's a wiki, please add more, http://wiki.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fFonts_2ffonts_2econf
<3> simosx: I will, but it's easier to type here atm
<3> 2) snippets -- autohinting, embedded bitmaps etc. They're generally single settings that are usually of toggle nature
<3> 3) locale-specific additions -- the tricky and nasty part we want to kill, present at least in Ubuntu, not sure about others
<5> mathrick: what is wrong with 3)?
<3> the whole thing with 3) is that those are long snippets combining many desirable adjustments for various languages, however, it ONLY works in a given locale
<3> which is fundamentally wrong
<2> Hey, everyone, as mentioned, I'll take a few stabs at filling out the http://wiki.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fFonts with the idea of providing a basis for figuring out an appropriate fonts.conf file when I get a chance ... As for now, I have to go ... Goodbye !
<3> yosch: this is the bit I have talked about at BoF
<4> Thanks Ed. See you latter!
<5> edtrager: thanks a lot Ed. see you latter
<7> 2 Qs if i may throw in the conversation.. a) how will this influence users using fonts but not "installing" them.. b) using font packages in the sense of having an active 20 or so fonts that are used for certain tasks but not normally available..
<3> anyway, those locale snippets are hopelessly stupid, because they essentially capture desirable per *language* settings, but only enable them per *locale*
<1> MrB: A means the desktop will mostly be configured by default correctly font-wise
<3> the effect is that when I read Japanese on a Polish desktop, I get something completely different from when I read it on a Japanese one
<1> mathrick: this is a direct effect of fontconfig lack of locale awareness
<3> nim-nim: no, you _don't_ want to use locale for that
<3> maybe for preference lists
<3> nothing else
<1> hi behdad
<8> hi all
<3> nim-nim: I don't want to see embedded bitmaps when I read Japanese, no matter what locale I'm in
<7> nim-nim: well im not thinking for the GUI, im thinking for providing information to apps, like Scribus, where we allow a user to use a font from any dir in a doc, and its nto isntalled for the system
<5> hi behdad
<8> I thought it's over and was reading the log
<9> hi behdad
<3> so, I only know about Ubuntu. Does anyone know if someone else (Fedora, MDK, SuSE?) use anything equivalent?
<6> I agree to a certain extent. I think openoffice uses some sort of block coverage heristics (i.e. scanning a few characters and try to work out what unicode range one is in).
<1> behdad, I note you've decided to make simosx happy
<3> in Ubuntu it's managed by language-selector, which is completely Ubuntu-specific
<1> mathrick: sure it's a problem with land/script/locale awareness
<1> Japanese and Polish people can not limit the settings they want to their locale
<3> nim-nim: you shouldn't confuse locale with language, really
<4> Hin-Tak: OpenOffice has a VCL.xcu file that has similar functionality to fonts.conf. However, with the current fontconfig integration in OOo, I am not sure if it is actually used.
<3> nim-nim: yes
<3> exactly
<8> nim-nim: not sure what that means
<1> behdad: "Fedora Core DejaVu packager"
<1> mathrick: it's actually a locale thing because many countries may use the same language but with different conventions
<8> nim-nim: yes, we are packaging DejaVu LGC to replace Bitstream Vera.
<6> simosx: doesn't work too well - wanna see OO.o change font mid-sentence ? :-)
<3> nim-nim: so what we need to do is to review all those locale snippets, see if there are any conflicts, resolve them intelligently, and then convert that into normal fonts.conf that then gets pushed upstream
<3> nim-nim: no
<4> Hin-Tak: screenshot me.
<8> mathrick: what are those locale snippets?
<1> behdad: and you've decided to make me unhappy. Oh well
<4> behdad: he is refering to the files that go in fonts.d
<5> behdad: the ones that go into fonts.d
<3> simosx: nope
<3> those are different
<3> behdad: those are normal fontconfig snippets, with the difference they only get applied when locale matches. So my desktop for instance includes only files called ja_JP and "none"
<3> they are distinct from fonts.d
<3> and reside in...
<8> mathrick: is it some distro specific magic?
<5> mathrick: you mean the fontconfig-voodo thing from Michael Vogt then?
<3> yosch: yes
<3> mathrick@megumi:~$ ls /usr/share/language-selector/fontconfig/
<3> ja_JP ko_KR none zh_CN zh_HK zh_SG zh_TW
<3> here they are
<6> simosx: got a pdf in my work computer - I'll e-mail that on monday.
<4> Hin-Tak: ack
<8> mathrick: that's kinda stupid
<3> behdad: sure it is
<3> that's why I want to kill it
<8> mathrick: which distro is it?
<3> Ubuntu
<0> mathrick: so language-selector copies that file into /etc/fonts/conf.d/ or some such?
<8> geer
<3> raph: no, I think it's a patched fontconfig or something
<3> it gets decided at runtime
<5> no AFAIK, it's just a python script handling fontconfig settings for a number of CJK locales
<3> behdad: snippets themselves contain very useful knowledge, but because Michael couldn't usefully decide what goes where, they created that side-step system
<8> mathrick: indeed.
<4> + Load local ubuntu-specific language custom file
<4> +-->
<4> + <include ignore_missing="yes">language-selector.conf</include>
<4> +
<8> mathrick: the should be wrapped in correct matches
<0> it looks like a symlink from /etc/fonts/language-selector.conf to a file in /usr/share/language-selector/fontconfig
<8> but the snippets should be really valuable. are there readily available on web?
<3> I believe from his responses that someone stepping up for the job and folding that into non-locale-specific conffiles would be accepted
<3> behdad: not sure, probably only in source .debs
<10> it may also be something to get CJK somewhat usable at the last minute before dapper release
<3> and FD.o wiki is really silly, not useful for working with files
<3> victory747: nope, it's been in place before, they just didn't sort it out, and it was indeed convenient for "quick fix, no think" patches
<8> mathrick: we really want to push those upstream. I think this should be continued on fontconfig-list.
<3> I should subscribe to all those lists
<8> or on fonts@gnome.org, cleaned up, pushed to fontconfig later
<5> mathrick we could ask for an svn module on f.d.o to hold this maybe?
<3> yosch: good idea
<8> yosch: I'm sure we can host them in fontconfig cvs
<8> as a separate module initially
<5> behdad: OK
<8> but when done, they can just go in real fontconfig upstream.
<3> and then we want to make sure distros don't patch their fonts.conf at all
<4> mathrick: you cannot force distros not to change their default fonts.conf
<6> distro probably will - based on what fonts they ship, etc.
<3> ****, I missed IME meeting last week, I only noticed it now
<6> same here. would have liked to listen in...
<3> simosx: well, we really want them not to mess with it
<3> that's why we want to have universal defaults
<6> e.g. Turbolinux in the far-east have a couple of commercially licensed fonts bundled, I think.
<1> if the defaults are good they won't touch them
<4> the phrasing should be towards "we suggest a good default that has these advantages and you are free to choose".
<4> Hin-Tak: "non-free" distros may elect to include commercial fonts, no issue about that.
<3> Hin-Tak: that doesn't change anything. Lack of a given font shouldn't change correctness in any way
<6> what I mean is, distro will always tweak their fonts.conf.
<3> and by "make sure" I mean "make it so that it'd be stupid to mess with defaults"
<3> Hin-Tak: why should they? If font A is better than B, then we just put it higher. If distro X doesn't ship A, then it'll simply use B, no matter where A is in the list
<3> *higher in preference lists
<4> Hin-Tak: we can get the upstream fonts.conf used by distros if we talk with the people responsible with the fontconfig package of said distro; listen to their views. for example, behdad for fedora :)
<5> getting consistent behaviours shouldn't have to totally rule out some flexibility in configuration. Surely some equilibrium can be found don't you think?
<6> yes, but then your are punishing the majority of "free" people of taking a small hit having to go through the fonts they don't have first.
<8> Hin-Tak: not really. Fedora for example doesn't touch fonts.conf that much.
<8> and for Mandriva, fcrozat is himself a fontconfig hacker
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