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Comments:
<0> Hazilla: well, I am using .tmpl files for perl... so I like to be able to put a VAR into the blank alt tags and draw that from the image catalog
<1> Aww...
<0> Hazilla: it's just annoying that I have to do it
<1> I reckoned I could like make an element with a height of 100% or something but that didn't seem to work.
<2> =]
<0> grimboy: I can explain it...
<3> ]full height
<3> ]fullheight
<4> fullheight: DECENT: http://phrogz.net/CSS/valign_in_body/block.html LAME: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/
<1> Yay, thank you.
<0> oh there you go...
<5> hi
<1> Obst, Hello
<5> I have a problem, im about to build a menu for my new page, if i go on gallerie with any browser the submenu is moved 1 pixle to right , why? Page: http://xb0x.eu/Page
<6> .eu, fun
<1> Obst, On the submenu try setting a margin of -1px
<1> That's just a guess.
<5> ahhh
<5> thank you
<5> so simple :)
<6> that's a fix, not an explanation
<6> Obst: you know that borders are adding onto the outside, right?
<5> no not realy*g
<7> is it true that cl***es dislike underscores? do the underscore affect it in any way?
<8> what is the ratio of px to em for firefox in windows?
<1> reisio, Right, so now I have to explain too?
<6> grimboy: I don't think anyone said that
<6> ;google kb.mozillazine.org em vs ex @ AgentCy
<9> AgentCy: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Em_vs._ex
<6> CaptainMorgan: like where?
<7> #id_name {}
<1> regfag, But you implied it. I am not good enough for you? Why don't you love me anymore?
<7> .cl***_name{}
<7> etc
<1> Yeah, wrong person.
<6> CaptainMorgan: that shouldn't cause any problems
<10> AgentCy: there isn't one
<0> AgentCy: px vs. em in windows can be approximated by doing "font-size: 62.5%" and then approx 10px is 1em _if_ the default font size is 16px
<10> this seems to be something so many people just can't grasp
<10> AgentCy: "em" is relative to the current font size
<0> AgentCy: but that is a dirty way of doing things, a way to avoid it is to just use ems for your measurements in the first place
<10> so your question is as meaningful as the ratio of px to cm
<6> maybe he only cares about defaults
<0> well, if the default font is 16px, then 62.5% works great
<10> if
<0> I do the 62.5% thing mostly to appease clients who want things some certain size, then I fix the page up for how it will really display in the wild
<0> some people like the idea that the way a web page appears on their screen has some relation to the way it will display everywhere else, no matter how silly that is
<6> what's silly about it
<1> Sometimes it's an unrealistic target or a target not worth the effort.
<10> reisio: because most people don't have a 22" widescreen?
<1> It's sometimes more important to look good everywhere.
<6> FunkyBob: they have viewers that can scroll, though
<6> and of course, you can make your website entirely scalable
<0> I dunno, it seems like 50% of what I do is to appease clients who may or may not have ocd
<6> appeaser...
<11> paotzu: I like to do 62.5 too. It simplifies math. Now, to get 12px under normal settings, I can type 120% instead of 75%
<1> Yeah, the last 2% is always the longest, most boringly frustrating and difficult.
<10> reisio: still won't look the same... and whilst _we_ understand this isn't a problem, some (especially marketing types) get all huffy if things are _prefect_
<11> FunkyBob: pervect? :)
<10> "The first 80% of the work take the first 80% of the time. The last 20% of the work takes the _second_ 80% of the time."
<10> chupacabra2: "perfect"... I haven't had a coffee, yet, this morning
<0> reisio: well I can't exactly tell them they are dumb and my solutions are better, I won't get paid
<1> Yup, the 20/80 always gets you when you least expect it. Even if you've done loads of projects before.
<6> FunkyBob: how will it not look the same?
<6> paotzu: money is weakness :p
<10> reisio: well, for example... that product they feel MUST be seen immediately in combination with the corn-flower blue logo to make JUST the right psychological impact won't be visible unless they scroll.....
<0> "above the fold" logic is pretty short sighted for web design these days
<6> FunkyBob: you can make it scalable
<10> paotzu: ?
<10> reisio: you're missing my point... and the point in general
<10> yes, pages can be made fluid, and scalable
<10> but some people JUST DON'T GET IT
<6> FunkyBob: spell it out for me then
<0> I still have people wanting pages that display entirely on a 800x600 screen with no scrolling down at all
<10> they can't understand that they are not the world
<0> but still have 3 paragraphs of body text that nobody is ever going to read beyond the headers and the links
<1> paotzu, What, no *vertical* scrolling?
<0> yea, sounds stupid right?
<12> I wonder if they get it when you /show/ them the differences.
<0> people are stuck in the advertising ideas that are good for magazines and newspapers
<0> you don't fold a web page in half...
<12> e.g. if you show them a site on a mobile, a site in Lynx, make them listen to a recording of Window-Eyes, show them a screen magnifier etc
<10> now, if you set up a lab and showed them "This is your page at these screen sizes/resolutions..."
<12> One could actually do something like that with a laptop
<10> webben: sadly, there'd still be some who wouldn't understand WHY you'd do that
<12> hmm
<12> I wonder if there are estimates of the size of mobile web "business".
<12> i suppose it's difficult to estimate
<0> doesn't matter, mobile web business is going to be huge in 5 years
<6> but nothing is going to have to change on the designer end for mobile web
<6> that's all hardware crap
<12> dunno ... i think smaller screens require less cruft
<12> e.g. http://www.amazon.com/mcommerce
<12> amazon without the distractions
<0> I have already been getting requests for image galleries that display on a mobile phone
<6> yeah, but if you're any good, you're not putting cruft on larger screens, either
<0> one problem these days is some cell services have proxies that strip out styles
<6> that's not the half of it
<12> reisio, I think we're talking about people who have the wrong idea anyway.
<6> paotzu: some browser vendors (cough)****youOpera(/cough) make browsers that do that ON PURPOSE
<12> Nothing wrong with stripping out styles.
<12> That's who it's supposed to work.
<12> *how
<0> well, for now, since nobody bothers to make a handheld.css
<0> and SSR is crap
<12> well, even then, users may wish to override handheld css
<6> webben: no :p
<6> you either strip _all_ CSS, or you strip none
<6> the inbetween is stupid
<6> this applies to virtually any idea or technology
<6> the inbetween
<6> is stupid
<6> it's like screen readers that support visual CSS
<12> reisio, Well, the CSS specs allow a merging of user/browser styles and author styles.
<6> THAT IS ****ING STUPID
<12> reisio, Not entirely.
<6> yes, entirely
<12> For example, people continue to misuse color to add meaning.
<6> so?
<12> Therefore JAWS users sometimes need to know what color things are.
<6> because people are stupid, other people should be stupid?
<12> reisio, Yes. AT has to work with other people's stupidity.
<0> opera might win the mobile browser wars because of how refined their "mouse gestures" are
<12> that's the nature of AT.
<6> I'd believe you if JAWS weren't such a POS :p
<6> paotzu: wouldn't count on it
<12> reisio, Just because JAWS is somewhat umm.... doesn't mean that its features don't address real needs.
<0> well, I like opera on pen devices because of that... others have to catch up
<6> webben: I'd believe you, except its "features" don't :p
<6> paotzu: no they don't, that's just it
<12> reisio, Yeah they do. That's why you get people asking other screen reader makers to add said features.
<6> you can fit a lot of very powerful hardware in mobile devices these days
<12> (by people I mean screen reader users)
<6> nobody has to catch up, because the hardware has
<6> s/people/peons
<13> webben, Yeah well I think the common web developer doesn't think about the non-seeing when they design
<13> some little icon that changes color is enough for seeing users, and plus it looks like shinny plastic! Web2.0++
<6> ha
<0> reisio: well, I mean like look at the mouse gestures ie plugin vs. the opera mouse gestures
<0> reisio: when dealing with a small screen and stylus input, opera wins... so far
<10> MiniMo FTW! :P
<6> you're comparing to IE?
<6> I thought you were making like a serious ***ertion :p
<13> Well there are only 3 *real* browsers out there for mobile devices I've seen, Opera, IE Mobile and the coming Safari on the iPhone
<10> I had to target IE on WinCE/PocketPC for one project
<13> IE Mobile is a POS
<10> man... and I thought IE for desktops ****ed
<10> it wasn't just bad... it was SPECTACULARLY bad
<0> funkybob: the worst part is, it is hard to use with a stylus... they are missing the point entirely
<13> The browser on those palm life drives was horrible last I used it. Didn't let you turn off CSS, mangled the hell out of pages that had no mobile stylesheet, no image scaling, couldn't turn images off
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