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Comments:
<0> :S.
<0> Seems even less efficient.
<1> zamadara, but if you don't have a clue about accessible coding/markup, then you're going to be doing a /lot/ of work after you get the results back
<2> so 10% is conservative estimate, IMO
<1> zamadara, and that will be /more/ expensive.
<0> :)
<3> zamadara: well im facilitated you are an declining minority and most people by now know how to webdesign a site correctly - if i where you, i would convince my boss of accessibility before he will come to you and tells _you_ about how to do your job; its much better for the carrier ;-)
<2> hey you guys are clever, why don't you just tell me I'm mean and insensitive while you're at it? ;)
<1> What's the point of telling somebody who doesn't care that they're insensitive. I'd prefer to stick to the facts.
<2> well that's what it really boils down to, I think the blind need someone to care for them on a personal level, you'd rather spend money inefficiently to empower themselves, so it really comes down to practical standards
<1> zamadara, Yes. Your thinking bears little relation to what disabled people appear to want however.
<1> and the idea that separate facilities for every ability is more efficient is bogus
<2> it doesn't matter to me what they want, so call me mean and insensitive, fine... but don't try and make an argument that it's practical to do things that way
<3> bah personal ***istance? i am no child and not hepllesss - and always some guy on my side if i want to surf the web (at i dont know what times, with i dont know which content)
<3> no way.
<1> zamadara, I don't care how insensitive you are. But the idea that web accessibility is impractical is pretty barmy.
<2> that's how I would go about things, if I were blind and I wanted to order a pizza, I'd call
<1> zamadara, Why is what you hypothesize you would do, so important?
<1> zamadara, and what would you do when the phone service ****ed?
<3> zamadara: do you really think, blind people need help when ordering a pizza, or are you just joking?
<2> hah, the phone service would always be orders of magnitude better than trying to talk to the macintosh voice
<1> zamadara, "talk to"? you do realize (most) blind people use a keyboard, don't you?
<2> jalsti: I call and order pizza!
<0> But they don't need to do that if the site is accessible.
<2> webben: they screen is read to them by a voice synthesizer
<3> and where is the relation to surfing the web?
<1> zamadara, Yes. That's the computer talking to them, not the other way round.
<2> jalsti: because I have the option of going to pizzahut.com and ordreing a pizza that way, but I think i'd rather just call ;)
<1> Anyway this analogy isn't very good. Has anyone here ever ordered pizza online?
<4> zamadara, not always. There are braille-output-devices
<1> because i'd never even have thought have doing so online
<5> I order pizza online all the time
<3> and additionally, where is the relation to blind people, webdesign, or accessibility?
<4> me too
<1> Oh okay.
<2> well you can webben
<6> hi can anyone help em again here is the page http://zbw.menacetosociety.de/menace_neu/Index.html
<3> @
<1> zamadara, How come you don't phone?
<7> (zbw.menacetos...) HTML: E: ( http://tinyurl.com/ywfqn7 ) CSS: Network Error ( http://tinyurl.com/2rpgs6 ) xml tags found before doctype DOCTYPE: XHTML 1.0 Strict + url (MIME: text/html, text/html; charset=utf-8)
<6> the whole thing should be centered
<2> webben: I just told you, I do phone, it's more convenient and I'm not blind ;)
<1> zamadara, So it doesn't really make a very good exemplar.
<6> and the lines should disappear
<4> siris9, wrap everything in a div and use #wrap {margin: 0 auto;}
<0> Ok. What do you do online?
<2> i was defeating your over-generalized argument that "blind people would rather do things themselves than have someone help them"
<4> siris9, also: your character-encoding is wrong
<3> you told they would need help to phone, i suppose
<0> With the not generalized at all argument "blind people need and want help".
<2> they do need help
<1> zamadara, What you mean as opposed to summoning forth pizza by pure psychic power?
<2> whether or not they WANT it is a matter of preference
<6> jazzman:yeah i know zhis is just a test text
<3> not wiht surfing when the webdesign is ok
<4> siris9, msg me for german convo
<1> zamadara, I was responding to your idea the the gov should pay people to sit next to blind people and surf for them.
<2> webben: do I have to spell it out for you? The phone is always more convenient, so if you want to design for blind people, have someone to take their calls
<1> zamadara, If phone is always more convenient, why does anyone use the web?
<5> is anyone actually blind or are people just speaking for them without asking them?
<3> zamadara: please talk to blind people soon...
<1> zeekstarr, Depends what you mean by "asking them". Not all blind people would give the same answer anyway.
<2> yeah, I think you guys are over-generalizing blind people
<1> zeekstarr, Just like with all human beings, you have to learn their needs through a process of ongoing communication.
<5> webben: I'll take that as a no, no one has asked any of them and just think they know what they want
<3> ...i worked several years with blind people, and they mostly arent like people think they are.
<0> But, let's say 20% of the blind want sites to be "accessible".
<0> Probably higher, but I don't know.
<0> Making them accessible- does it mean that the other 80% suffer?
<0> No.
<2> is it just me, or do you sound like you're talking about them like they're mentally handicapped
<5> Jalsti: I know a couple and they don't like special treatment, life is al ittle harder but they deal with it
<1> zamadara, Er.... who? and how? I think it's just you.
<6> jazzman: did u get it?
<8> I've never ordered pizza, but when doing it by telephone, don't you usually have a copy of the menu so you can work out what you want to order? Wouldn't it be a bit easier to have an accessible website that a screen reader could read then trying to read a printed menu while blind? Or do you phone up and get the entire menu read out to you over the phone?
<0> That's just basic economic efficiency.
<4> siris9, no
<0> You can make one person better off without harming any others.
<1> Dorward, Good point. :)
<2> I made the argument that *I* would rather speak on the phone, in most cases...
<3> exactly, so why make it even harder? if they are able to browse the web, where is the problem of the small effort to make a normal site?
<2> ordering a pizza was an example
<6> jazzman: dont have irc ,have trillian
<8> zamadara: So ordering something else would be different? You could get the entire Amazon CD catalog read out perhaps?
<4> siris9, ok, the lines: your background repeats, set it to repeat: no-repeat and the lines should disappear
<2> Dwarr: that's not true... if you enforced the accessibility rules, it would cost billions, and that money could be better spent
<0> I don't neccesarily support a rule.
<0> I just feel that people should design in an accessible way.
<2> there are some cases where I may want to, but in private sector it always comes down to a matter of how practical it is
<2> some people can't appreciate that attitude, and that's fine
<0> I just don't see how it's impractical.
<0> But oh well.
<2> I think my VNC service would be a big hit
<0> Hmmm. Why doesn't min-width work in IE6?
<2> my grandmother can't even double click her mouse
<2> single click is extremely painful to her
<2> that's what gave me the idea in the first place
<0> Hmmm.
<0> Could be good.
<0> I suppose voice-control isn't an option for her?
<4> Dwarr, http://www.cssplay.co.uk/boxes/minwidth.html
<2> she's old she'd hate it, she would love some 18 year old boy to talk to on the phone though :)
<1> zamadara, or give her an alternate input device that doesn't involve clicking ... e.g. http://www.fentek-ind.com/FootPedal.htm
<1> zamadara, Most people have some things they'd prefer not to share with some random 18 year old kid.
<2> my idea involved priority routing, so you'd usually get the same person at any given time of the day
<1> ah i see
<2> and there would be ways to ensure privacy
<6> jazzman101:are you shure that the background repeats?
<1> well, it's not bad, but since it wouldn't solve the problem i can't see it getting a lot of government money
<1> zamadara, Ah... you're going to mindwipe the employees. Excellent ;)
<2> how wouldn't it solve the problem?
<6> jazzman101: i wouls say the image slips up a little
<1> zamadara, It wouldn't solve the problem of the many people who don't want to (or indeed /can't/) use phone acces.
<3> zamadara: if you can afford that effort - why cant you afford simplest accesibillity?
<2> oh I am certain the phone service would be more cost effective
<5> I don't get it, we have the worst financial troubles in the US going on right now, adnt he rain forest is almost destroyed which will kill the earth and you want old people to be able to search the web?
<2> lol
<1> zeekstarr, That's right. Caring about old people means we can't care about the rainforest.
<5> webben: yea thats what I said
<3> zeekstarr: yes, get the last rain forest wood made coffins
<5> my point is the gross miss use of funds
<1> zeekstarr, And obviously money spent on accessibility is taken right out of the Save the Rainforest fund.
<5> they lived x amount of years with out the internet, I think they will survive
<3> where is a fund misused if i design my website accessible?
<5> Jalsti: it's not, I'm talking about the other ideas
<2> jalsti: so how much does a website cost to build?
<1> zeekstarr, How about the "gross misuse" of funds spent on, y'know, websites in the first place...?
<5> webben: I see you grasped my point
<4> siris9, looking into your code I se you used <img> tags for background: not very good. I guess it looks like the background-color of #a and #b are shinign through after those <img> are done
<3> depends on the site, the time, the net, the team... how much more expensive it will get if you design it normal instead of time costing js stuff?
<2> the js stuff usually pays off though, like I said before, looks are everything
<2> that's like the basic rule of marketing
<9> I have in the top of the css the *{margin:0px; padding:0px;} but I have a page that I dont want this to take affect anything we could do??
<3> hihihi
<2> but what if you spent $5,000 extra on a $100,000 site for accessability, and not a single person came through your site with voice synthesis turned on
<2> I can think of a few cases where accessability WOULD pay off (IRS) but nothing I have ever worked on
<3> nanna: overwrite it later with another rule and add an !important to it?
<10> zamadara: true but can't you be sued if your site is inaccessible to some, particulary if it's a government site
<1> zamadara, or colorblindness, or fatigue, or a screen magnifier, or an alternative browser...
<2> webben: ok, now my alternative solves every single problem in one all-powerful blow
<2> fatigue, solve that one, heh
<1> zamadara, Hate to break it you, but I find phone calls much more exhausting than dealing with stuff online.
<2> design everything so all you have to do is look at the product you want to buy
<2> webben: well you're a perfectly capable adult, aren't you? ;)
<2> we're talking about disabled people aren't we?
<1> zamadara, Nobody's "perfect".
<0> Yeah. Because all disabled people find phone calls easy.
<9> I could only write something in the page and only in html
<2> I did buy my grandmother a track ball but she doesn't like it either, but lemme tell you how much she loves calling me on the phone ;)
<2> didn't try the foot pedal, she probably wouldn't like it either
<1> zamadara, Yes ... calling your grandson is obviously comparable to calling a bookstore.
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