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Comments:
<0> Oi.
<1> HeH.
<1> With you, goldfish, etc. there I didn't realize we were in parallel universes.
<0> Anyhow, Scoop v. Slash :: Ranking v. Voting.
<2> :-)
<0> If you've ever read a "readers' choice" edition of a newspaper and wondered why the hell Taco Bell or Mickey D's won, you understand the problem.
<1> karsten: Bottom line, all rating systems may be gamed.
<3> They as well as all of you you should be in jail for your willful sending us into an unwinable war?
<0> pr3d4t0r: Quite.
<0> pr3d4t0r: That's part of the realization. There's a place for admins and overrides. You can make gaming difficult.
<1> karsten: I'm just happy with my excellent karma and my low /. ID.
<1> karsten: I'm something of a father figure there.
<3> Its Clear; You have Commited Treason for Putting us at risk?
<0> pr3d4t0r: yeah, I was there pre-IDs, met Rob & Jeff a few times, roblimo, etc.
<0> ronins: ??
<0> pr3d4t0r: DHS is essentially a reputation system, that doesn't work particularly well.
<4> pr3d4t0r++
<3> sorry; i get so emotional
<3> i need more than that; im so mad im going to Launch the W70
<2> :/
<0> W70?
<1> karsten: I recall telling an IBM ThinkPad guy on an airplane, the same week that I signed on to /., that Linux would become a breadwinner. The guy laughed at me and said, "We'll never push something like that." IBM guy. I wish I'd taken his business card.
<0> pr3d4t0r: What year was that?
<1> karsten: Look for sushi in there and you'll find one of my rare replies in Kuro5hin.
<1> karsten: 1998.
<1> karsten: March or April.
<0> pr3d4t0r: IBM was already committed. Well, except for parts.
<1> karsten: The guy was fawning up and down about Windows NT 4.
<0> Internal study "Earthquake Paper", 1997.
<1> karsten: No, it wasn't.
<0> IBM's not a single entity.
<0> It's an empire.
<1> karsten: None of the business people knew about it.
<0> Parts of it still hate open source.
<1> karsten: I know. I worked for them.
<1> karsten: Don't tell anyone. I hated every minute of working for IBM. I like working with them, though.
<0> pr3d4t0r: Heh.
<0> pr3d4t0r: Stephen Burbeck, RTP, was one of the study authors. The "Peace, Love, Linux" campaign pretty much came straight out of it.
<0> pr3d4t0r: Strategic analysis, mostly on competing with Sun and MSFT, blunders of the Unix movement.
<0> A lot of focus on Apache.
<1> karsten: All those things didn't happen until 2000, 2001, post-VA Linux's IPO.
<1> karsten: I got the letter. I think I still have a few VA Linux shares, five or so.
<1> karsten: I sold my 125 shares (out of 130) as soon as I could.
<0> pr3d4t0r: Wrong.
<1> karsten: Made a nice little bundle on that.
<1> karsten: HeH.
<1> karsten: It was a fun, heady time.
<3> Point this is #awk channel and i can awk All of You under the table; any time; any whwre
<3> Lets see the 99'th channel i have been booted off for speaking the Truth.
<1> ronins: Sure.
<0> pr3d4t0r: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/
<0> pr3d4t0r: Open Sources (O'Reilly & ***oc): 1999, mentions the IBM stuff indirectly. I think in Behlendorf's section (IBM were huge on Apache).
<3> they said major citrus damage here from last two nights -5C==23F :rod-sacramento
<1> karsten: IBM didn't commit publicly to this until 2001 or so.
<1> ronins: :\
<0> pr3d4t0r: I know.
<1> karsten: So that doesn't count.
<0> pr3d4t0r: They had done so internally, at CEO level, by 1998 at the latest.
<0> pr3d4t0r: Bollux
<1> karsten: If we went with that, RMS has been babbling about stuff since 1984 or so.
<0> pr3d4t0r: What I'm talking about is when IBM committed to OS. It was 1997/1998.
<1> karsten: I talk about futures all the time where I am, and we're a much bigger company than IBM.
<1> karsten: And I have the ear of a lot of people. That doesn't mean, though that anything will be adopted until it's adopted.
<3> Point if you want to hear re unix from 1979-1998?
<1> karsten: So talking about **** in 1998 means nothing.
<1> ronins: Nah.
<0> pr3d4t0r: I've talked to the folks and seen the docs.
<1> karsten: It counts when it becomes public.
<1> karsten: That's when it counts.
<0> pr3d4t0r: No, it counts when the company commits.
<3> what are you talking about ? this is #awk
<1> karsten: That's what I mean by "public".
<0> What I mean is when the corporate leadership makes the decision.
<1> karsten: IBM didn't commit until 2000 - 2001.
<0> Making a decision != public statement of same.
<1> karsten: Public within the company, not public-public.
<1> karsten: I meant that even hardcore IBMers didn't know/care/want/etc. this until 2000 - 2001.
<0> pr3d4t0r: You're misinformed.
<3> We have the W70 here ready for you Easterners that are so Egotistical.
<1> karsten: No, I'm not.
<1> karsten: I was dealing with IBM all along on this. Even as late as last October.
<1> karsten: The stupid things they say about Linux, even today, are appalling.
<1> karsten: Especially Linux on zSeries machines. The bull**** got up to my neck at times.
<3> didnt Microsoft buy UNIX?
<1> karsten: That's one reason why I was happy to hear that Oracle entered the arena last October.
<1> karsten: IBM was spouting too many stupid things about Linux that suits were likely to believe.
<0> pr3d4t0r: Fact: IBM executives had commissioned a top-level, reports-to-CEO study, in 1997 or 1998 (march of one or the other) in which the case was laid out. Fact: Stephen Burbeck was part of that study (Tim O'Reilly and Brian Behlendorf were among outside experts brought in). Fact: I've seen the report (only enough to scan it, was internal to IBM at the time). Fact: IBM's "Peace, Love, Linux" campaign echoed major themes of the report.
<1> karsten: I'm not arguing that the report exists, or the dates for the report.
<0> pr3d4t0r: Those are the facts, they're verifiable. IBM started making public announcements WRT Linux in the 1999/2000 time period.
<1> karsten: All I'm arguing is that they didn't commit to it until almost four years later.
<1> karsten: And that the people who should've been clued, weren't.
<0> I'd say that four years later they made their (much earlier) committment public.
<1> karsten: Even us, who have a more rigid structure than IBM, have a bunch of people evangelizing things at the gr***roots levels.
<1> karsten: The AIX and AS/400 guys weren't buying it.
<1> karsten: The professional services guys weren't buying it.
<1> karsten: You're missing the point.
<1> karsten: And this conversation is pointless.
<0> There, much better.
<1> karsten: Just remember this: it took Microsoft less 6 months to turn the company around to embrace the Internet.
<1> karsten: That's my point. Commissioning a report means squat until you do somethign about it.
<3> Point any of you afraid to recognize; 'I can code you under the Table; anytime; anywhere'
<0> pr3d4t0r: And I'm saying that IBM was doing something: embracing Linux, working with apache and websphere, buidling up professional services., porting DB/32, looking at x86 server compatibility issues, porting Linux to zOS, etc.
<0> pr3d4t0r: Stuff. That. Takes. Time.
<0> pr3d4t0r: ... as well as building internal concensus among business units. In particular the MSFT-friendly divisions and legal (think patents).
<1> karsten: Yup.
<1> karsten: It still took 3 - 4 years.
<1> karsten: And they still bull**** left and right about Linux.
<4> (l)unix
<0> pr3d4t0r: My point was that the tipping point, internally, was 1997/8
<1> karsten: It must've come later.
<3> how about the Approach data base; best ever anywhere?
<1> karsten: Incidentally, you just reminded me again why I will *never* work for IBM again and why I will *always* try to knock their offerings during bids.
<0> Heh.
<3> you obviosly have no experience with Approach data base for it is best ever. Period.
<1> ronins: Oracle is where it's at, baby.
<0> Feh. It's a night.
<3> Right; and if you ever had to code Poduct for a DataBase and had used Approach you would say why?
<3> so are you saying we can finally speak the truth behind their backs?
<1> ronins: You have an awesome talent to kill a discussion, did you know that?
<3> whilst i am intimidated by posts that i not understand; you must admit i have ability to envoke questions?
<1> ronins: Indeed.
<1> karsten: You know, instead of arguing about this we should work together toward understanding why quesadillas are tastier if you grate the cheese before you make them.
<3> or Perhaps if you Pushed 'quesadillas' up Your Behind Rather Than be awk responder channel?
<3> we are sending you 300 MegaTons; just hope you enjoy that.
<3> im so mad and freezing i say Launch them
<2> ...?
<3> You do not have to endure our frezzing cold; i Say Launch our Nuclear Missles against them.
<2> what freezing cold
<3> I Say Spin Them Up; lets Launch them
<2> u r cray z
<3> Perhaps so; but when you have to protect them; then best to Spin them up and give them the W70
<3> did You Hear that? Castos Cuba is putting You in the Box
<2> yes
<3> so it is ok with you that they do that?
<2> sure
<3> sure what ? that they do it?
<2> sure im ok
<5> argghh
<5> always forget this...
<2> n00b
<5> heh
<3> Perhaps not sense to you; Lets All Die Toghether Yes?
<5> trying to compare $2 $3 from prev line.. with cur line then do action.. so far im at.. if (NR%2) { prev2=$2 ; prev3=$3...
<5> wrong direction?
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