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Comments:
<0> Guj: with a smaller army affecting a smaller area and therefore having a smaller impact
<1> Timur, they were.. under saddam regim.. were nobody could move without a permit ?
<2> yes there were
<0> afrenchci: yes.
<3> no terrorists in Iraq? even the guy we caught when we rolled into Bagdad? Bush used to mention him by name.
<1> Timur, how many ?
<2> and some were actually invited and trained by saddams regime
<4> redfish -- The very fact that it occured 80 years ago is the point
<5> timur: I think as a percentage of area, israel has more an impact in occupied territories than USA in iraq
<6> Abbu Abbas
<7> who cares that a trial occurred 80 years ago
<6> Zarqawi
<7> it could have never occurred , it would have effected nothing
<4> refish -- The trial is being refought by the Fundies today
<1> Exdeath, came afterwards from jordania..
<7> affected
<6> Abu Nidal died in Baghdad, 2002
<0> http://www.husseinandterror.com/
<6> One of the most notorious terrorists ever
<0> Ex: right, among others
<4> redfish -- Many conservatives, including President Bush, support the addition of intelligent design which holds that life is too complicated to have been created without an architect to curriculums
<0> "Actually, Saddam Hussein knew plenty about terrorism. In essence, he owned and operated a full-service general store for global terrorists, complete with cash, diplomatic aid, safe haven, training, and even medical attention. Such ***istance violated United Nations Security Council Resolution 687. The results not only broke international law, but also were deadly, as this chart demonstrates:"
<0> http://www.husseinandterror.com/jpeg%20pics/08sized.jpg
<8> It's sort of pointless to argue the issue of how we got into Iraq. What about now? What should the US role be from here on out?
<9> heh neat.. almost reported finds of wmds in iraq have been retracted...
<9> ink as a percentage of area, israel has more an impact in occupied
<9> territories than USA in iraq
<9> <6> Abbu Abbas
<9> <7> who cares that a trial occurred 80 years ago
<9> <6> Zarqawi
<9> SignOff DarthBurg: #politics ()
<0> Katey: I agree
<4> redfish -- Who cares what the Bible says. It is much older
<10> I say we pull out of iraq, watch Iran invade, than nuke the entire area
<8> And where will we and Iraq be in say...10 years?
<5> katey: poor as **** with a few oligarchs running things
<0> Katey: hard to know the answer
<8> Timur, take a chance
<8> make a prediction
<0> oligarchy might be the way to go
<9> in 10 years? we hopefully will be gone from iraq...
<5> pfft
<5> Timur, worked well in russia didn't it
<7> aaaman so youre telling me the point is that something was accomplished with the scopes trial?
<7> i dont know the point
<0> Katey: honestly, I'd like to, but there are way too many variables. :)
<8> ok
<8> I'll do it
<1> Timur, 1968 ???
<10> hey...when the hell are we going to get out of Germany!
<0> Guj: it did, for 70 years
<7> what im annoyed with is that people doing empty rhetorical posturing
<5> it sure as hell ain't gonna be no liberal democracy
<0> afrenchci: what about 1968?
<8> This is just my prediction, of course. I'm no expert.
<7> why mention the trial at all?
<0> Guj: of course not; they're not culturally developed enough to handle liberal democracy
<1> Timur, your stats start ini 1968
<11> to me the whole Terry Chiavo case was about the family was wanting to take her home and look after her themselves, at their expense. If the parents can't have that right then I dunno
<5> Timur, Their cultural history doesn't include the enlightenment.
<0> afrenchci: right, and Saddam took power in 1969. So?
<8> Looking at where things appear to be going now....I predict that, following an extended period of internal conflict, a strong leader will emerge
<0> Guj: of course
<1> Timur, so there is no mention of al qaeda
<8> And this leader will gain a lot of support because the people will be desperate for some stability
<0> Katey: one hopes, because that style of leadership is proven best suited to Arabs
<0> and third world countries generally, esp non-Enlightened ones
<8> And basically we'll be looking at a dictatorship style govt
<0> hey, Kuwait has a King, and they have women running for parliament now
<12> I don't think that Arabs are "unsuited" to liberal democracy. I just think we can't bomb them into being ready for it.
<8> I'm not willing to predict what sort of relationship this leader will have with the US
<0> Fed: I do, and right, they can't, but we can help serve as a catalyst
<8> But I think that the idea that Iraqis will have a western style govt. is a hopeless fantasy
<8> understandable
<0> I've dealt with Arabs, and I know a lot of Arabs, and I've studied with/under Arab professors, and studied the region, and they're just not.
<8> but hopeless
<12> No one can be bombed into liberal democracy. It's a contradiction in ideas. Can you imagine if the American Revolution had started with a French-led 18th Century equivalent of "shock and awe"?
<0> they're still way too divided along sectarian and clan lines to form such a government.
<8> I don't think it is because they are Arabs. I think it's because when you have societies with an extended period of internal unrest, it's the natural result
<12> Widespread butchering on horseback, maybe....?
<8> In the end, people just want predictability
<7> fedup americans already had a democracy, and the french would have had to attack the british anyway
<8> they want to go to work, go to school, go home, and be able to have an orderly life
<0> France had been a relatively unified country with basically one religion, one language, and one set of cultures for 100s of years; same with England
<1> Timur, as one man mention in here.. you should have democrats... before moving towards democracy, while anyone in the west, including me, hope democracy will prevail in iraq. there is much much to worry amoung this.. mention of islam in their consitution like in afghanistan where a man could have face death sentence because he moved from islam to christianity.. to say it differently.. i hope we didn't bring to earth some ne
<1> w iran alike nation.. and my overall sentiment that goind into iraq.. bush didn't opened the pandora box
<0> afrenchci: there's more than 1 box, though :)
<12> redfish That's what I mean. If the French had come in and attacked the British with widespread destruction on our soil, as a way of initiating a liberal democracy here... It's a stupid analogy. Nevermind. 9.9
<7> anyway , its not a matter of imposing democracy. we got rid of hussein and anything that happens to iraq now is our fault, the only way to really give the iraqis their self determination is to construct it for them
<1> Timur, :) you are far away from the place.. but.. hmm. well..
<12> "self determination".... "construct it for them." Methinks I see some illogical logic.
<7> .
<0> afrenchci: far away? I just came back from Israel, and I stayed with a dear old friend with whom I went to university, who is married to a wonderful Berber woman from Algeria, and who spent years in Saudi Arabia and Jordan before his present posting
<9> generally self determination is coupled with rugged individualism.
<13> Timur are a jew?
<1> Timur, yes sorry just read you above, while i was writting
<0> howdy: yep
<13> Timur do you know who are the only nations that called jews "a race" ?
<0> are you a Greek Orthodox Christian?
<0> howdy: everyone?
<14> hey Timur the Lame
<13> Timur I'm Greek.
<1> Timur, ok, then when was the first time you went in this area ?
<0> Jukov: hey
<7> fedup. its not a matter of my logic.. say the goal is to leave the country back to the devices of the iraqis. you think we would accomplish that by leaving right away --- the power vaccum would have been filled by different groups--and that would be equally our doing as setting up a democracy. there is no way to come to a solution in iraq that isnt our fault
<9> Coptic?
<0> afrenchci: 1985; 1992; 2006
<13> Timur eh, no, the jews know that they are not a race... i;m surprised you agree that they/youa re
<7> come to a situation i mean
<13> Timur jews are not a race
<0> howdy: except they don't agree at all on that, in fact, it's pretty much an accepted concept, so sorry, you're wrong.
<0> except we are.
<7> fedup , if the goal is to give them self determination however it doesnt make sense to leave without there being a democracy
<7> we cant pretend the iraq war never occured
<12> redfish I agree that all we can do is manage our screwup. Too bad that wasn't figured out BEFORE we invaded! (Some were foreseeing it, I remind you.)
<13> Timur eh, no you're not, I can be a jew if i want to
<1> Timur, personally well, i knew.. amoung other places.. egypt.. in the 80's.. and well people to be more encline to proudly wear their headscarf and all.. while before.. they were more incline to go for western clothes..
<9> redfish: a democracy or democratic republic?
<13> Timur you can't "become" a member of a race, race requires a certain DNA, but anyone can actually become a jew
<7> a democratic republic is still a democracy :? dont do this
<12> But what if a democracy is not the determination that they come to by themselves? Leaving it a democracy may well be OUR determination, not theirs.
<9> howdy_: there are jews the people, and the jewish religion. there are genetic jews; please do not suggest otherwise.
<13> Timur I can;t be black and blacks cant be white, same with asians
<0> howdy: true, but the % of converts is small, even insignificant. The vast majority share the generally accepted % of DNA to be considered a race. IS there a Greek race? one can becoem a citizen.
<0> is there any such thing as race, by extension? and even if so, how is it relevant?
<13> Libertine are you saying that if a jew decides to be a catholic, he is not a longer a jew because of religion?
<13> Timur eh of course Greeks are not a race
<1> Timur, for me, this change.. which happened those years;. is a sign of sympathy.. to those we all unhappily know.. and not the opposite. and the more sympathy.. the more blind young to join them at the end..
<0> afrenchci: it's a long-term development, the increasing retrenchment and chauvinism of Islam over the last 20-30 years
<9> howdy_: um no, I am saying there is a Jewish race at the genetic level; as evidence by say... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay-Sachs_disease
<0> howdy: I've spoken with Greeks who would disgree :)
<0> afrenchci: yes, but ultimately, it's both a self-destructive and ineffective sympathy.
<7> fedup if we left right away and different competing groups tried to impose power--that wouldnt necessarily be what the people wanted either. and it wouldnt be the natural course of their society--it would be our fault also. the only thing you can do is try to leave a situation that the people want--which can only be defined as some sort of democratic republic. if they decide to overthrow it in the meantime.. thats their will
<1> Timur, i have seen the same in the netherland too.. just after 9/11
<14> Timur
<13> Timur that;s because we are cool enough to be a race :P
<0> destroying that which is 'bad' doesn't in and of itself create anything 'good'
<13> but we are not
<14> u r the lang
<14> hahahaha
<0> howdy: oh yeah? how many Greek nobel prize winners? :)
<1> Timur, you don't and i don't know. at least.. they kill US soldiers.. and i am not happy with this..
<12> Yep, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. So I think the only rational thing we can do as a nation at this point is hold accountable our own leaders who a) decided to invade and b) supported the invasion. Yes, that includes both political parties.
<0> afrenchci: I know a bit. :)
<9> FedUp: great; we vote out every incumbant, and end up with.. oh right; more republicans and democrats.
<9> we'll just switch every blue state to red, and red state to blue; that will accomplish... so much....
<12> Libertine They're bound to be better than the current bunch.
<1> Timur, well in term of ineffective sympathy.. while they kill our western soldiers.. i don't see that as ineffective
<5> red=blue now anyway.
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