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Comments:
<0> Instead, I work nights because I enjoy it.
<1> that was 2hrs of nothing to do
<0> That's how you keep people happy and doing a good job.
<2> Armon, why should I have to pay you for the time you sit on your *** doing nothing?
<3> astrodog_ lol
<0> `426Hemi: Because I'm doing my job, and I'm doing it damn well.
<1> sheesh
<0> `426Hemi: And if you *** a boss can't recognize that, you're simply an awful boss.
<0> `426Hemi: It doesn't save money.
<2> Armon, fine, then if it takes you only 20 minutes of every hour to do your job, then i only need you for part time
<0> It doesn't save time, or effort, to give the employees a break.
<2> "go home"
<0> `426Hemi: Don't tell me you've actually ever been an employer.
<1> `426Hemi changes his nickname to Simon_Legree
<0> In an office space, that is.
<4> Hemi: Then you'd have to pay him more per hour.
<4> D'oh.
<3> There are many examples , especially in factories, where allowing slack time is great incentive for high productivity.
<0> Seems like anything that is comfortable to people, is automatically a waste of money for some people.
<5> everyone settle down now.
<4> PArt time programmers, and systems people cost ~75/hr.
<3> Where removing that slack time, causes an overall loss in production, and allowing it causes a gain.
<2> Armon, i have been a boss, and the 3 times i was a boss i had THE most productive numbers of 3 different crews
<0> `426Hemi: If you'd measure the work output of this department, and another department here that has a boss like you, you'd see that we're doing a much better job, enthusiastic as hell, because we enjoy our jobs.
<0> `426Hemi: Jesus.
<2> and the people under me got mega raises for their hard/smart work
<4> Armon: He's run construction crews, I believe.
<0> Aaaah, construction crews.
<5> setTLE DOdwn
<0> That is so totally different.
<4> Different environment.
<1> haha
<2> ARmon nope, they weren't construction
<4> Hemi: Then what were they?
<0> `426Hemi: Ever had people doing creative work work like programming or web design or some **** like that?
<2> manufacturing, 1 was construction
<1> the egyptians had productive builders...mind you they were likely slave drivers
<0> Imagine a web designer who doesn't think about anything except going home early.
<2> Armon, thats what i do now, that is why i work at home
<0> That would be a lousy web designer.
<2> because i like to work on my own time=)
<1> productivity at the cost of employee wellbeing = crap
<0> A web designer that feels so comfortable at work that he wants to stay up late and work without pay, now THAT's productivity.
<1> that's why Walmart has such a high turnover rate
<0> `426Hemi: Good for you.
<3> L0c0- actually most of the laborers who worked on the great egyptian products were volunteers, and some semi-compulsory; sort of like military duty in some nations.
<0> `426Hemi: But I'm not surprised you want that if you've always had bosses like yourself.
<1> 426Hemi: what kind of businesses were you boss at?
<3> L0c0- they weren't slaves, it was manditory for citizens to put time into the public works projects.
<1> Kobushi: damn it...my elementary school history book lied to me!
<0> The less negative impact work has on people, the more they can use for the work itself.
<1> haha
<0> It doesn't HAVE to be "get moving or I'll fire you" all the time.
<0> It doesn't take that much toughness all the time, you know.
<3> L0c0- slaves would have ultimately proved too exspensive to maintain for such projects.
<2> i was a level 3 mechanic for an air plane parts manufacturer, and a supervisor for a pvc pipe manufacturer, and a foreman for housing construction
<1> Armon: that's what the ARmy is for
<1> haha
<0> And censoring one political view and not another one under the premise that we cannot be trusted, at best is an insult!
<0> L0c0-: Exactly.
<3> Army? those guys don't get **** done
<1> slavery
<1> haha
<0> `426Hemi: Well, if you treat your employees like it looks like you treat them, I wouldn't work for you for a million dollars a month.
<2> treat them like what?
<4> ****?
<4> Heh.
<0> `426Hemi: Like machinery.
<3> Military folks are ALL the time wasting time and ****ing up :P
<1> what kind of foreman for housing construction?
<2> treat them like i EXPECT work to get done?
<3> $1mil/month?
<3> Hell I'd crawl on gl*** by my tongue for $1mil/month
<3> :)
<0> `426Hemi: If you expected a programmer to work 100% of the time... you really should pick another industry.
<2> hahah Kobushi
<3> But I'd retire after like 6 months :)
<6> treating workers like commodities may work in a factory or manufacturing or construction environment, but in IT it means you will only get the worst of the worst who will be willing to work for you because anybody worth anything will walk as soon as you start acting that way
<0> Okay, okay, let's dumb this thing down a bit.
<0> Imagine you want to build a snowhouse.
<0> And you get all the kids in the neighborhood to help you out, giving them candy for it.
<2> in IT you have deadlines to meet yes?
<3> Null_Ptr even in factories it has been shown that allowing down-time once productivity goals are met increases productivity
<0> Now, if they're having *fun* building the snowhouse, do you think they'll do a better or worse job than if they're just trying to finishing it off to get the candy?
<2> in programming you have deadlines to meet right?
<0> `426Hemi: Yes.
<0> Of course. :)
<6> having deadlines doesnt mean you should be pushing everyone to 100% every minute. that's counterproductive and will just make anyone good quit.
<2> when you miss those deadlines because you were sitting on your ****ing *** reading "Stormfront.net" I would fire your ***
<2> its that simple
<7> Armon, when dealing with children, they will do as little as they can to get the candy.
<6> yeah but thats because you're an idiot
<0> `426Hemi: How many times do I have to tell you this? It isn't about that.t
<1> you ***uming that reading it would make him miss a deadline
<0> `426Hemi: Never was, isn't and never will be.
<0> `426Hemi: We meet the deadlines.
<3> Null_Ptr so, say the company has a goal of X units/day; if you tell the workers they can slack off after X*1.20 units/day, you'll increase your productivity by 20% (***uming it's obtainable and they can actually get the slack time)
<1> 426Hemi: what if he makes those deadlines and still reads it?
<7> and predictably they will throw a tantrum, and try to get it w/o doing any of the work.
<2> Armon, no wonder you work for someone else
<0> `426Hemi: If I wasn't making through the deadlines, Stormfront.org or not, I'm a bad employee.
<1> you'd make a ****ty boss
<6> kobushi i agree with you; i disagree with `426Hemi
<1> the type that has no faith in his employees
<0> `426Hemi: And I should be fired for not finishing the project in time, which you now just ***ume is the case of course, because your point is invalid without it.
<0> `426Hemi: Damn right, no wonder. :)
<3> of course, programming is a bit different... there is no real tangible way to measure productivity/progress until the project is finished
<2> thats exactly it Comet
<7> morning hemi
<1> i've worked construction and you aren't working 100% of the day
<0> `426Hemi: You should judge me by the time it takes to finish a project, and I agree with that.
<2> employees today tend to do as little as they can for as big a paycheck as they can get
<1> there's always time to sit and wait for something
<2> its pretty sick
<1> always opportunities to do somethng other than your job
<0> But firing someone who taking a break to read up on something of interest (even if politically absurd), is just ridiculous in this environment.
<0> `426Hemi: And why do you think that is?
<7> Armon if you are in construction I will judge you on 1) quality of work 2) Cost
<0> `426Hemi: Why do you think they don't love their jobs so much that they'd work overtime without pay?
<1> though, most times, you're just allowed to leave for the day
<8> Comet Priv
<0> CometBaby: Haleluja, and that's the way it should be.
<2> Comet, yes and some people don't understand that sitting there hanging out shooting the **** is costing money
<0> `426Hemi: If I were your employee and you weren't treating me like ****, I'd do 4 more hours just making sure something works before betatesting.
<2> ARmon, there would be no 'if"
<2> i would hand you your walking papers
<0> `426Hemi: And why? Because I can take a break and think about something else for 5 minutes at a time, I can go for a cup of coffee and in general take it easy... resulting in better work.
<0> Jesus ****ing Christ. :)
<0> You're just amazing. ;)
<8> Hey you really ought to leave jesus out of your work problems
<3> NO coffee! Get back to work or you are fired! What?! You just HAD a bathroom break 3 hours ago!!!
<0> Such... I dunno, bitterness or something. This world view that fun work is just wrong somehow.
<8> he is probably not interested in your reading of this site
<4> Armon the programmer, meet Hemi the wannabe robber baron.
<0> Programming without coffee is like building a house without cement.
<6> being a hard-*** is almost always antithetical to getting good productivity out of people. what you're doing is creating an adversarial environment - what you want to be doing is creating a win-win where employees can thrive and grow their own interests, which should be aligned with yours
<1> ARmon: haha, pretty crappy job if that's how its run
<0> `426Hemi: May all your employees quit on their own accord and find a boss that gives a **** about them.
<2> no one says you can't have a coffee, but when you are wasting my time and money using company utilities for personal use, thats called theft...
<6> he doesnt have employees, he's just a blowhard
<0> Not that there's a chance in hell you'll ever be the boss in a programming team with that attitude.
<0> You wouldn't finish a single project.
<3> On the other side... it is hard to find people that will actually work, and give a **** about thier quality of work; and who don't want to just **** off 80% of the time
<0> And if you did, you'd have to hire a new crew every 6 months just to keep the business going.
<1> ARmon: haha b/c most of them have done the drudge work
<0> `426Hemi: It's, not, waste, of, time. What part of that do you just not understand?
<4> Armon: Heh. The team would laugh, then walk out after the first meeting.
<2> exactly Kobushi
<4> :P
<3> but 20% ****ing of i a fine price to pay if they care about thier work
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