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Comments:
<0> The UN will probably always be a mess... too many conflicting interests... but it's nice having a forum to deal with it in front of everybody to avert any unnecessary wars.
<1> Exdeath, if the US was reformed would you be for us withdrawal ?
<2> its funny how much emphasis the war of 1812 has in canadian history cl*** its all bout kicking the americans ***es
<3> Timur: You see, that's where the fundamental disagreement lies.
<4> Armon: the UN is only a reflection of its member states, their particular relative levels of power and interests. no more, no less.
<3> Timur: France and Germany know they benefit from it.
<1> Hehe, It would be funny if they were based in NY and the USA wasnt a member :)
<1> hehe
<5> No, I think if Bolton is able to spur some actions it wouldn't necessarily be worth leaving
<4> Armon: I know, and that's why they're so damn hypocritical.
<6> hashbar: lol canada didn't even fight in it :)
<5> And other diplomats
<3> Timur: But having known what losing a war is like, THEY NEED MORE JUSTIFICATION than their own damn interests to do a... not a war, a "pre-emptive strike2.
<2> heh
<1> Exdeath so, really a lot of us have common desires for the un, To fix what has become an extremely corrupt institution.
<2> sure sure keep telling yourself that
<6> FreeTrade: nah... we should just boot them out
<3> Timur: It's hypocrasy to actually give a damn about anyone other than yourself? In my days they used to call that basic morality.
<0> Yeah... they need more justification... like more oil contracts to replace the Iraqi ones.
<2> did anyone see that lord of war movie
<5> Yeah FreeTrade, I think that is fair to say
<6> FreeTrade: build a military training complex on the site of the un
<1> rcane, are you seriously against the UN ?
<6> FreeTrade: think of the irony
<6> FreeTrade: of course
<1> Really
<6> it is a waste of money
<4> Armon: apples and oranges. Their justificati0n would only occur after they had already lost another war, by then it'd be too late.
<1> Even if it was reformed ?
<0> France and Russia abandoned the Iraqi people *For The Oil*
<4> so it's a nonstarter as an argument
<6> lol
<1> Sure its a waste of money now.
<6> how do you propose to reform the un?
<5> I do think we pay an extremely disproportionate amount of funds into the system too compared to other nations.
<3> Timur: No it wouldn't. If there was clear and imminent threat from Iraq, it would, but that simply wasn't the case.
<1> but if we could clean it up ?:
<6> if you can reform it.... sure...
<6> but how are you going to do that?
<6> and how will you keep it clean?
<1> See, thats sort of the general consensus amongst many of us.
<5> There wasn't a clear and imminent threat from the Balkans either, but taking action there stopped vast genocide...
<1> It is horribly corrupt
<2> i wish america had the resources to start more wars
<3> Timur: Iraq didn't even threat America, it didn't state any, ANY interest in attacking America for ANY reason. It was not a US matter, it was a UN matter.
<5> And that was basically unopposed by liberals and conservatives alike.
<2> i mean if you guys are gonna take on the role of world police you cant do it half ***ed
<1> we have terrorist states which are on comittees against terrorism.
<3> Until, of course, the US decided that the UN didn't work, and broke international laws.
<6> actually exdeath.... clinton aided the terrorists in the balkans
<2> you gotta take out north korea and iran too
<0> Armon... well that's just flat wrong.
<4> Armon: wrong, the ***essment by p***ive nations like .fr and .de would only merit action.. after action was already impossible to take. :)
<1> We have racist states who are on committes on world racism
<2> the axis of evil must go and no one else is gonna get it done
<7> Armon, you don't make the rules as to what is a 'clear' threat, you, or the international community.
<4> the cost of excessive p***ivity, and which renders them irrelevant on the world stage.
<3> TheTailor: What?! Why on Earth do you think they founded the UN to begin with?
<1> they said israel and the USA were the 2 most racist nations in the world, if they believe that they dont deserve to exist (That Committee)
<4> except in places like Cote D'Ivoire, of course, former colonies
<3> TheTailor: It was for the specific reason, that a superpower CANNOT BE TRUSTED for other countries' interests!
<1> When our black sec of state walks out of it, that tells you something.
<3> Nations are like kids, they do what they want, and they need restraint
<1> Its not about racism
<8> hashbar that's it that's the exact reason why the UN will never work.
<6> FreeTrade: lol they fail to realize that arabs are semites :) hahhaha
<3> And when the biggest kid disapproves of the rules and just breaks them... then we have a problem.
<7> Armon, the UN doesn't act against it's corrupt despotic members.
<1> its abotu radical tyrants who have autonomous rule over thier own countries attackign the USA and Israel unjustifiably.
<9> Al Gore to publish book on global warming in April http://networks.org/?src=reuters:2006-01-24T181041Z_01_N24233070_RTRUKOC_0_US-ENVIRONMENT-GORE
<3> TheTailor: That's so we don't start another world war.
<7> Armon, that is why YOU don't make the definitions.
<3> TheTailor: Which is a real possibility.
<5> The fact that Libya and Syria are at the head of the UN Humanitarian Commission is unbelievable.
<6> TheTailor: that is because it is a hangout for corrupt despots :)
<2> well yeah anyone thats in the role to be world police the UN the US they do it half ***ed
<4> Armon: the biggest kid, then, in this case, is the one whose job it is to maintain order. fortunately, that kid is also the US, which is a democracy and whose constituents come from all over the world.
<9> I wonder if Al Gore will take credit for Global Warming too
<3> TheTailor: Me, being an Icelander and a member of the United Nations... yes I do.
<2> if you want these dictatorships to fall you gotta bring the hammer down you cant be diplomatic about it
<1> I say america is one of the most advanced nations in the world when it comes to racial equality and ethnic equality, though we are not perfect by any means.
<7> Armon, terrorists that the UN didn't control HAVE started a world war, smell the coffee.
<3> TheTailor: You don't get to pick and choose the world's destiny just because YOU think you're trustworth of it.
<0> The *UN* was who started breaking their *own* rules... which is what led to the US enforcing the original agreement.
<3> NOBODY is trustworth of it, which is exactly why we form organizations like the UN.
<3> Glock21: A cop breaking the law doesn't justify the citizens doing it too.
<7> Armon, but we do get to fight our enemies, with or without YOU.
<3> Glock21: And the ends do not justify the means.
<0> The UN ain't a cop.
<1> The primary reason for the UN should be issues like eradicating small pox, which they did.. And a last resort to try to avoid wars.
<3> TheTailor: Yes, like Nazi Germany.
<6> YYZ: hmm with all his hot air.. It wouldn't suprise me if he was the cause
<3> TheTailor: That just justify it.
<2> if cops are breaking the law maybe it means the law shouldnt exist
<7> Armon, no, not like Nazi Germany
<1> BRB, I need to order something for my son.
<3> You must be able to handle a lil' bit of free expression, dear Glock21.
<0> If I hear one more dumb*** thing about nazis I'm shutting you up for good.
<0> I'm sick of it.
<3> Glock21: /ignore is bliss. :)
<2> see i think the UN should be starting wars
<2> the UN has gotta clear up all this bull**** in the world
<0> I'll ignore you for the whole channel, not cut it out.
<3> Just honor your country's fine value of freedom of expression, and tolerate it.
<2> thats their job
<0> not->now
<3> Well, I gotta go smoke.
<7> Armon, IRC is a totalitarian setup, remember that :-)
<0> Armon... welcome to a moderated forum... different rules than a soapbox I'm afraid.
<3> Nice arguing with you guys, finally a political channel with some blood pumping. ;)
<3> TheTailor: Ah. Right.
<0> lol
<0> He can't talk without referring to nazis
<3> Glock21: No offense for the nazi remarks.
<0> His biggest arguing chip was just denied.
<7> Armon, and you didn't even raise our pressure :-)
<0> :P
<3> TheTailor: No!? Well, I'll have to take care of that later. ;)
<4> Armon: well, it's a good way to be dismissed - bring up the overused and overly simple 'nazi' analogy
<3> Fine, I'll lay off the nazi thing.
<7> Armon, be sure and leave the Nazi's out of it :-)
<8> Timur it works for Israel..
<8> lol
<0> I liked the old rule in debate cl***... first one to mention something to do with hitler... loses.
<3> I'm sure I don't have to use the nazi anology to convince someone that breaking international rules isn't just... okay.
<3> It's quite a deal. It threatens the little we have to prevent WW3.
<7> Armon, not acting on international rules is also wrong.
<0> I don't have to put up with nazi-accusation for proposing that enforcing ceasefire agreements is a good thing.
<3> TheTailor: I agree with that. But that doesn't justify taking the rules in one's own hands, that's my point.
<7> Armon, when it's a known that wrongdoing is happening, you can't stand by and let it, THAT is against the rules you so love.
<3> I'm not saying that the other guy is good and America is bad.
<0> "The JUST causes of war, for the most part, arise either from violation of treaties or from direct violence." - John Jay, Federalist #3
<0> I fully agree with that statement.
<3> I'm saying that there is no good guy in international politics. America defends (rightly) its own interests.
<7> Armon, we can agree on the rules, but if you don't apply them, we will :-)
<3> Like a cop that gets paid for beating up people, it simply cannot, by its very own standards, be trusted to be world police.
<3> TheTailor: ;) Hehehehehe.
<7> Cops don't get paid to beat people up.
<8> hehe..
<3> TheTailor: Could've fooled me.
<3> But I'm out. Piss you off later, bye! :)
<7> pfft, lightweight
<0> ABC Exclusive: Scalia played tennis when Roberts sworn in!
<0> heh
<0> The horror!
<0> Damn it's been a slower news week than I thought.
<7> The Canadian election should have been on Thursday.
<6> why thursday?
<6> after scalito is approved?
<8> Bin Laden Threat Might Include Advanced Russian Missiles.. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200601\SPE20060123a.html ..|O_o|..
<6> hey timur
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