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Comments:
<0> TheTailor: get it?
<1> aand if your a consumer you had better be making something for somone else or you aint going to be consuming for long
<2> MichaelC, well being a gardener, sure I get it, ya dolt, who wouldn't?
<0> TheTailor: good. now can you extend that to our discussion?
<0> i'm sorry if i offend anyone.
<1> being a gardner you had to make some money somewhere to A) one the land B) buy the seeds C) own the place to store what is picked so on and so on
<3> MichaelC sure, but that gardener can't grow the garden w/o having traded for things to use there :)
<0> KoBushi: true. however, we are only concerned with vegetables.
<3> that is intellectually dishonest
<3> that ignores the lager reality in order to justify your nonsensical claims
<3> larger*
<0> KoBushi: no theory is meant to be all-inclusive, except maybe string theory.
<0> we begin by analyzing.
<3> that's like analyzing the brakes of a car and ignoring the brake fluid
<0> KoBushi: what do you intend to explain about the car?
<3> "the brakes" remember? :)
<3> it's in the statement for goodness sake :)
<2> MichaelC, so, you are of the belief you can stand alone then?
<0> TheTailor: from what?
<0> TheTailor: totally alone, like God?
<2> Without trade, you can produce and consume without interacting?
<0> TheTailor: not like God, but sure - like that.
<2> I didn't mention God.
<3> now he will try to narrow the scope of his statements in order to avoid confrontation with his own mistake
<3> wheee illogic and intelectual dishonesty are fun!
<0> i'm not dishonest.
<2> MichaelC, maybe if this was 700 BC or so you could.
<0> in a moment, my body is continuously producing red blood cells and getting rid of old ones. also, i don't need to work everyday, nor do i need to get groceries every day.
<2> But not today.
<2> Even then, barter was the rule.
<4> 700 BC.. the height of Phoenician power!
<2> MichaelC, you may not need to do that today, but sooner or later you will.
<0> TheTailor: true, but that is irrevant to deciding which are primary and which are secondary.
<0> irrevant -> irrelevant
<3> MichaelC what is irrelivant is trying t claim either are primary or secondary
<2> MichaelC, frankly I was trying to understand what then hell you are talking about, but frankly, you aren't making any sense.
<3> MichaelC because they are reliant on each other
<1> He's a troll
<1> the impish kind
<1> :)
<2> He's not a troll
<1> I know read back
<3> MichaelC so, what is your agenda? What does establishing that trade is secondary to production and consumption thehn allow you to claim? :)
<5> hey Today
<2> OcDoc is a troll!
<5> who told?
<2> haha
<2> BAGHDAD, Iraq Al Qaeda in Iraq's leader in northern Baghdad was killed in a raid Friday, the U.S. military said.
<2> Another one bites the dust.
<5> oh goodie
<0> trade is not production, nor is it consumption. trade results from production and consumption, but production and consumption do not always result from trade.
<6> Congratulations to our forces in Iraq on eliminating the terrorist
<7> How many times did we kill Al-Zarqawi, eh seems to resurface again. Is he immortal or something?
<2> MichaelC, if you limit yourself to thinking about the end product only, maybe.
<5> triplets
<5> Michael: I came in late ... what's your point?
<2> salx, who said we ever killed him?
<5> trade can be important
<0> OcDoc: my last sentence.
<7> TheTailor: there were at least 4 times the news put out Al_Zarqawi maybe dead in the attack
<5> that's not a point, it's a more or less correct observation
<7> and backed out
<3> salx he's like Baal from Stargate, there are lik 20
<3> :P
<5> in a complex economy, trade is a leveller
<2> salx, I never saw that. However, I don't know what news you listen to, and it wouldn't shock me if the liberal press made that false claim.
<0> OcDoc: thank you for in effect admiting my objectivity.
<5> or like Valdemort ... you have to kill all of his entities before you can kill him
<3> OcDoc his point has been that "Trade" is secondary, and somehow less important, than production or consumption.
<5> Michael: okay, what did that get you? you seek praise from strangers?
<2> salx, the military never said they killed him.
<5> KoBushi: okay, what's wrong with that?
<0> OcDoc: of course not. i merely wanted to break ground.
<5> KoBushi: allowing trade is important
<2> Trade isn';t secondary, it goes hand in hand with production.
<3> OcDoc trade doesn't exist seperately from production and consumption. They are all intertwined and neccesary.
<5> TheTailor: I don't follow that
<8> COLUMBUS, Ohio -- A disturbing case was discovered Tuesday about a Central Ohio man who allegedly told police he likes to drink the urine of adolescent boys.
<9> What's one of those websites where it will hide your ip address?
<5> Kobushi: in a primitive society each person makes his own tools and grows or kills his own food
<2> OcDoc, in today's world you always are involved in trade one way or another.
<3> OcDoc even in societies which are today living in stone-age tooling.. that isn't true
<5> The Tailor: I agree but you can't consume what hasn't been produced, so production is primary
<7> here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4446084/ here http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176166,00.html and here http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/wireStory?id=1331400 and here http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1334898
<7> TT: there ya go
<5> KoBushi: I was speaking theoretically as a background
<5> I'm developing an idea here
<2> OcDoc, I don't know how you produce without trade of some sort, where did you get the land to grow a garden?
<3> OcDoc but marxism doesn't work either :P
<5> specialization and civilization lead to more and more complex trade
<3> theory w/o alooting realism isn't useful
<2> salx, I don't even have to read that to know it's largely bull****, once I see 'msn.com'.
<7> TT: you prefer what? foxnews.com ?
<2> salx, I looke at the foxnews part, it says "No Confirmation Zarqawi Was Killed in Raid"
<5> the best shoemaker makes shoes to trade for food killed by the best hunter ... one village then discovers how to mine coal and they trade the coal to the next village for cloth
<7> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/20/iraq/main1060392.shtml
<7> there cbs for you
<8> Specialization is great
<2> cbs I wouldn't bother with either
<8> Infact, people who are anti-specialization are like economic luddites
<7> TheTailor: so you consider foxnews your main souce for news, nuff said
<5> but there is still a hierarchy of importance and precedence even in the most complex trade civilizations
<2> salx, nice of you to determine that for me, but no, you are wrong.
<5> KoBushi: alooting realism?
<2> salx, and the cite you gave with FOX, again, didn't support your claim that Zarqari was claimed dead, it says "No Confirmation Zarqawi Was Killed in Raid".
<7> whether you like it or not, cbs, msnbc etc are all main stream american news medium.
<5> trade stimulates economic development
<5> Herzen: specialization leads to social change ... luddites don't want social change, that's all
<2> salx, they may be mainstream, but they lie on a regular basis.
<0> my thesis at the beginning of my argument was probably misunderstood. i said that production and consumption are necessarily primary and trade necessarily secondary. i also said that production and consumption can exist without trade, but i did not say that production and consumption always do so. therefore, i neither said nor implied that what is primary and what are secondary are always in opposition.
<5> it's a matter of opinion whether a particular social change was good or bad, usually it's both
<7> TheTailor: you mean they carry the white house's message ?
<2> MichaelC, this is the old chicken and egg argument.
<5> Michael: you're missing something ... you don't mean ALL trade ... you can't have any production or consumption without trade
<2> salx, is that what I said? That's twice you put words in my mouth, don't do it again.
<5> some trade, I mean
<0> OcDoc: of course one can.
<5> you trade labor for money
<5> no, one can't, not in any modern society
<5> you trade money for consumables and shelter
<2> salx, you claimed the press made a claim he was dead, then you cite FOX saying "No Confirmation Zarqawi Was Killed in Raid", TRY and make some sense.
<5> the factory trades for raw materials
<3> alooting-> allowing
<7> TT: i mistyped the fox link
<7> but read others
<5> Micahel: you have to specify the kind of trade ... if you mean foreing trade, then you might be right
<9> salx: Ok, we get it, americans bad, muslims good. Just keep drilling in that message until they all get it, you go bro.
<2> salx, as I said from the begining, I don't read cites that I know are skewed, I suggest you do the same.
<7> Command: huh where did that come from?
<7> Command: I am an american, why would I be calling myself bad :P
<0> OcDoc: the kind of trade should always be specified, exactly.
<2> salx, obviously if those others say he was killed, they are not telling the truth, and the US military never said he was dead.
<7> TheTailor: there were plenty of yes he's dead, no he's not.. one too many times
<5> Michael: that's where your discussion got off track ... a primitive society starts to have trade almost immediately
<5> but it's limited local trade
<2> salx, yes, I'm sure the liberal press lied thier *** off all the way, it's typical of them, that's why I suggest you find better outlets.
<5> salx: so in essence you're criticizing the sensational press about premature headlines?
<7> somehow they keep resurrecting him after killing, gets me all confused
<0> OcDoc: could you define "society"?
<7> OcDoc: pretty much
<3> Man I hate tax season
<3> QuickBooks ****ing ****s too :(
<5> Michael: yes, society is the interrelationships of people
<7> KoBushi: one word , taxcut
<2> salx, well you wouldn't be confused if you read what the military puts out rather than the American tabloid press, ABC, MSN and the rest.
<7> use it
<10> see you all in a couple weeks
<0> OcDoc: intterelationships? what are those?
<5> where's Rusty going?
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