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Comments:
<0> FreeTrade it was the UN which prevented the US from finishing the Gulf War
<1> rodtr: not after the first revolts were so brutually quashed
<2> He is finishing the job that neither his Father or Clinton would finish.
<3> which ones are those lupine?
<4> ooo
<1> l0c0: naw, you can do it in the filing you are filing
<0> FreeTrade it was only by promising that we would NOT topple Saddam that we got UN ***istance/permission to go into Iraq the first time.
<4> SoCal police chase on CNN
<3> ones after Gulf war 1?
<1> rodtr: yea
<3> ah ok
<3> yeah
<2> I hoped for a war with Iraq the day after 911 knowing they had no direct involvement based on ideological differences between sadam and Usama.
<4> man
<1> IMHO: that is a major reason why the populatin didn't help the US
<4> ford gonna cut 25k-30k ?
<4> "the way forward"
<4> haha
<3> because I was arguing about this stuff yesterday and the guy reckoned that the Iraqi's could've rebelled on their own
<3> which i really doubted
<2> Though I think I was premature to think they wouldnt work together because ideologically they are at odds, I think they would of worked to harm a common enemy, the USA and the UK and the west.
<1> l0c0: any word if they're going to cut foriegn plants, or US?
<4> Lupine: i heard one in Mexico and one in Canada
<2> The Iraqis tried to rebel and they were slaughtered
<2> women and children
<4> Lupine: but like 4 here
<1> l0c0: ugh.. that aint a good trade
<2> This is why we established the no fly zones to protect the kurds and shias.
<1> FT: right
<1> my cousin served enforcing that no fly zone, and was fired upon by iraqi forces numerious times
<2> Because the world was shocked after Iraq 1 at the terror saddam was inflicting on these groups.
<4> Lupine: but it's amazing that GM and Ford are failing, yet Toyota's got a new plant in San Antonio coming online soon, Nissan has new plants in the US...
<1> l0c0: right, back in the late 70s early 80s.. they claimed it was due to US worker versus Japanese worker..
<1> this obviously shows that is false.. US workers can make excellent cars..
<2> The world quickkly got high and forgot about it though, until a chilly reminder came on 911, that not only do we have a serious enemy in the middle east (Usamas followers), But we cant ignore other regimes in the middle east either.
<4> Lupine: yup, remember that movie "Gung Ho" w/ Michael Keaton?
<0> L0c0- Toyota and Nissan don't have unions
<2> Lupine, they were fired upon weeks before the end of the inspections because Saddam would not cooperate so the weapons inspectors pulled out
<4> I like my pickup, but if I was in the market for a fuel efficient, reliable vehicle, I'd go w/ Honda
<0> L0c0- nor do they have pension/retirement packages from 30 years ago the are still paying on in the US :)
<4> KoBushi: hehe...unions are definitely part of an old business model that just doesn't work
<2> People have to rememeber than Saddam was blocking the weapons inspectors routinely after promising immediate and unfettered access to any suspected wmd sites.
<4> I mean, at the core, I can see the good a union can provide. basically a voice for the little guy, but somewhere along the line, they got way too greedy
<2> SO they pulled out and said hey we cant do our job, Saddam is playing with us.
<0> L0c0- indeed, Union contracts are hurting GM a lot, not sure about Ford but probably simular story there
<5> my father HATES being a union man but he has to
<2> Finally after the last UN Resolution and the coming summer when war woudl be harder, we delivered the consequences of not obeying the UN.
<4> haha Dubya and Clinton blocked access to personal information by procecutors and investigators....can we bomb them too? PLEASE?!
<4> KoBushi: yeah I'd say the same
<1> FT: yea, I saw a video shortly after DS.. where the UN came to inspect a chemical plant.. as they guards stalled for hours, trucks were running out the back
<2> It was go strategically or wait a year.
<2> as it was it was hellish hot weather our troops fought in.
<4> Lupine: they were carrying out Udey's porn collection and booze stash
<1> lol
<1> Triumph of the redistributionist left
<1> http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0123/p25s01-cogn.html
<2> Lupine yeah.. I am pretty sure he had wmd before we got to baghdad.
<1> excellent, BTW
<2> I am pretty sure some were destroyed at the last moments, but of course i cant prove it.
<0> Does anyone know of a decent national-level insurance company that will deal directly with indaviduals?
<2> All he had to do was burn some of the chemical weapons to destroy them.
<1> well, what many forget is.. the UN had documented huge stockpiles.. and they just disappeared, no record of them being destroyed
<0> (Or, even a state one here in NC?)
<2> We burn nerve gas stockes from ww2 right now to dispose of them permanently we have been in the process for years of destroying al of our chemical weapons because nations stopped using them in war in ww2 except germany.
<2> Lupine right.
<2> thats a fact
<2> But why would people overlook these facts ?
<1> because it serves their political ideology
<2> The only answer I can find is political opportunism.
<5> man, there are still unexploded mustard shells scattered all over verdun... from WW ONE
<1> IMHO: the US should have destroyed all those weapons themselves, post desert storm
<5> i took a tour there recently, and the guide told us about a man who visited just the prior year and got messed up real bad after taking a stroll off the path
<1> fall: in the mid 70s, some kids came across a lost-stash in north florida from WWI
<2> Well america has huge stocks of mustard gas which environmentalists have been impeeding the destruction of.
<2> they are destroyed by high heat, by burning them
<2> They are rendered harmless.
<2> The agent in the weapon is burnt up, and no longer toxic
<2> We got huge stocks of it during ww1 and beforeww2
<2> Because people used gas in ww1.
<2> As I presume most people here know.
<2> Ive been to where lots of them are buried.
<1> Yea, thou I do not think the US really used it in WWI.. the use was pretty much over before the US got involved on teh ground
<2> I wont even mention where because Its not top secret but i dont think it should be talked about.
<1> the french and germans learned by then, it wasn't really a tactical advantage.. and just caused mor eproblems than it helped
<5> well i already said
<2> And I wont talk about it.
<5> Verdun
<0> FreeTrade the closest thing to an "argument" I have seen, is that the feel the UN's records were innacurate, and that Saddam's own claims were lies; since no such stockpiles/etc were found after the invasion.
<2> But I know exactly where a lot of it is.
<2> No in America
<5> oh
<2> There is a very bureacratic slow but steady process of destruction.
<0> Basically, the claim is that the records were wrong; and that the truth must be what we see... no WMD
<1> the real danger is in moving the ordinance, it would be far safer to dispose on sight
<2> They are buried.
<2> Lupine exactly
<2> But they are not allowed to burn on sight for some unknown reason.
<0> But I have to wonder, why would they burry these weaons rather than use them against the US?
<0> weapons*
<2> site
<2> Who ?
<3> you mean iraq?
<1> KoB: probably because saddam knew they'ld be totally ineffective against US troops
<2> Saddam ? He had no chance of victory or international support if they used weapons.
<2> He had no chance of victory anyway
<1> FT: yea, I think he was expecting the muslim world to stand up against the US
<3> yes, he didn't
<5> Once in a while they still find shells here in Germany... they'll schedule an hour-long evacuation of a village while a team makes a controlled detonation
<2> but he could garnish international sympathy perversely.
<6> You realize saddam managed to bury an entire AIR FORCE... was only by luck troops found a tailfin of a fighter plane sticking out of the sand, wind had blown it. If you can bury an air force you can certainly bury drums of chemicals
<5> A few months ago they did that near here
<1> bud: yep
<2> Why did Saddams own generals think they posssessed chemical weapons, why did they have gas suits within a 50 mile radius of Baghdad ?
<2> Why did the Iraqi soldiers have gas suits ?
<0> bud^ sure; just the motivation for buyring your military power... I don't see it.
<0> not saying that didn't happen, I'm saying I don't understand why you'd do that
<3> well that one's not as sure, because they may have been expecting to have to fight against opponents using chemical weapons
<0> the WMD, oka I can see that to make the US look bad... but why the airplanes?
<2> Why did their generals say we would be g***ed as soon as we crossed the 50 mile radious
<2> radius
<7> Iraqi soldiers had to buy their own gas masks! And it's Bush's fault!
<3> bluffing perhaps
<3> that stuff isn't as 'sure'
<2> Bluffing but each general had no clue what the next general had in his arsenal.
<2> They were not allowed to communicate which is crazy in a war.
<3> their communication was that poor?
<3> oh, I didn't know
<2> each general thought the other general had the gas.
<0> FreeTrade hum, that sunds like a false moral trick
<2> We had their sat phones and to the surprise of the enemy generals we were calling them.
<0> ie: Saddam and guys told them that "someon has the WMD" ... and ten stopped from from communicating
<8> Did you guys talk about the soldiers not being allowed to wear dragon skin armor?
<0> so; each division thinks "hey our side has these WMD and will ue them at any moment, don't give up yet"
<2> Its not that communication was impossible it was forbidden on certain topics by saddam.
<2> This is a way to keep information useable as propaganda.
<3> was that so that secrets weren't revealed over the radio?
<3> ah ok
<3> 'teh devil you don't know'
<2> if General A thinks General B has gas, then he is part of a disinformation campaign.
<3> yes, makes sense
<2> And vice versa.
<3> but still, I doubt it'd be worth the confusion in terms of organising actual fighting
<8> The soldiers being told if they are not wearing their interceptor armour and found dead their families don't get the insurance money.
<3> unless they were allowed to communicate for that
<2> General Myers of the US command, went to talk to the kind of Jordan and Muhbarrak in Egypt.
<1> rodtr: Saddam feared many of his own geneerals
<2> Both of them told him Saddam had gas.
<2> so our commanding general believed completely that they had gas.
<2> It wasnt if, it was would they use it ?
<3> right, I remember how in the newspapers they were showing off US soldiers wearing gas suits
<2> At that moment in time
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