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Comments:
<0> who? buchanan?
<1> it is said that he would wake up screaming
<1> no US Grant
<1> he suffered from major PSTD
<2> Unconditional Surrender Grant
<2> One of the most interesting things about him was he became ill at the sight of blood, and smoked as many as 2 dozen cigars a day
<1> FT, you don't have to apologise to me ever
<0> Grant drank whenever his wife was not around
<1> Swigert not true
<0> He was an excellent General, but a dreadful President
<1> not true
<3> The matter of whether patronage is necessarily synonymous with corruption provides an additional question of consistency; for historians, if the reformers' verdict is true, must explain how Grant's predecessors, most of whom practiced patronage, led administrations exempt from the brand of corruption.
<1> thats what the whole entire point i just made to FT was
<2> Franklin Pierce was a bigger drinker than Grant :)
<1> history has painted him as a huge piece of ****
<3> What is ironic about the traditional picture of honest reformers opposing the president's corrupt party henchmen is that Grant was actually the first president since the establishment of the Jacksonian spoils system to initiate civil service reform.
<1> and he wasn't
<3> The arguability of the reformers' charges against Grant extends to cases of actual corruption. The Credit Mobilier scandal, the most conspicuous of the so-called Grant scandals, was in fact only uncovered by the administration. The corrupt activity had occurred in 1867-68, before Grant even became president.
<4> MrRod good lord I thought you were doing something useful
<5> US_Male: I was. I went shopping I got strawberries, a strawberry pot, a hammock and some paint.
<4> nice
<3> The weakness of the reformers' charges, however, is in itself an insufficient explanation of the political environment of the Grant presidency. The crucial issue that remains to be explored--Reconstruction-- sheds light on the entire political situation. There was more to the reformers than civil service reform, just as there was more to Grant's supporters than patronage.
<4> now you can paint. Or lie in teh hammock.
<4> or both
<5> US_Male: I only came here to explain how I'm taking full advantage of my weekend while you're farting around on IRC.
<4> lol
<4> MrRod: ahh but I am doing things =)
<4> inside
<5> US_Male: Yeah. Improving your typing skills.
<4> no, that's hopeless
<6> not by the looks of it
<6> i son;p
<4> I have realistic goals
<3> The effect was electric. Reformers lamented the sacrifice of 'real' issues, such as the tariff and civil-service reform, to the 'dead' one symbolized by the 'bloody shirt'...and the use of federal troops (in the South) as gross violations of civil liberty, but they were also forced at last to give up their open hostility to equal rights and black suffrage.
<5> US_Male: I'm going to plant my new strawberries now.
<3> First time most people have seen me switch sides of a debate int he middle of it ;)
<1> FT, exactly
<4> MrRod: I know you're going to lie in teh hammock
<3> But I am not yet absolutely convinced either way..
<1> everyone wanted america "rebuilt" their way"
<5> US_Male: I already did.
<4> how is it
<5> US_Male: Now I'm back to being useful.
<5> US_Male: Very comfortable.
<4> oh. I'm still on break
<1> and US Grant stuck to his guns and expanded the boundaries of the USA
<5> US_Male: It's a quilted hammock. Soft.
<4> cool
<0> imagine being on one of the fire trucks headed for the WTC - what would be going through your mind
<1> set aside money to bring the entire USA as we know it today into the fold of the United States
<5> US_Male: It's under my orange trees so I have the fresh scent of oranges.
<1> and people call him "corrupt"
<1> pff
<4> oranges will fall on your head
<3> The traditional verdict on the Grant presidency does not even begin to appear logical until one accepts the flawed ***umption that the corruption / civil service reform issue was more important than such issues as Reconstruction, international crises, Indian affairs, and the multitude of economic matters, all combined. As William B. Hesseltine admits in his definitive study of President Grant, Grant's enemies....stuffed the ballo
<3> aha
<3> Now Iam forced to read a new book.
<5> US_Male: We all have a price to pay. That's mine.
<1> EXACTLY! FT!
<1> G OG OFT!
<3> Grant's enemies....stuffed the ballot boxes of history against Grant...
<4> if catch the oranges you can eat them
<5> US_Male: True.
<5> US_Male: Why don't you get a hammock?
<3> Bibliogaphy Ringwalt, J. Luther (John Luther) Anecdotes of General Ulysses S. Grant illustrating his military and political career and his personal traits. Richardson, Albert D. (Albert Deane). A personal history of Ulysses S. Grant. King, Charles. The True Ulysses S. Grant. Garland, Hamlin. Ulysses S. Grant; his life and character.
<1> FT, they thought that the south should PAY for the entire cost of the civil war
<4> MrRod, you need a long-handled orange picker
<3> Swigert recognize any of those historians as particularly interesting ?
<5> US_Male: I have one.
<1> US Grant was like "nay, the south has suffered humiliation enough"
<4> MrRod: I have no yard
<4> <-- condo dweller
<5> US_Male: Oh. You still have common areas, right?
<3> Mayby Garland Manlin..
<4> but I have a deck
<3> Ill check out he authors reputations first.
<0> no none of those names rings a bell - sounds like they were 19th Century authors
<4> yeah there are common areas in the middle
<1> US Grant realised that the only way to unite the country was to treat the south like part of the US, not condemn them
<5> US_Male: Set it up here.
<4> I could put up a hammock on the deck
<5> US_Male: Or does your commune not allow that?
<1> condemning the south would have only bred the same ****ing animosities we battled over in the civil war
<4> The Borg would allow it
<3> Swigert they are revisionists, Interesting.. And Thomas Sowell makes some observations also contrary to histories concesnsus about him, which means I need to study the debating factions.
<4> as long as it's not visible
<0> 426hemi: many Southerners still felt that way
<1> Swigert yes but they would feel EVEN MORE SO
<4> MrRod: we are Borg
<1> if Grant would have punished them
<1> get it?
<0> 426hemi: true
<1> and the people who wanted him to punish the south
<1> painted him like a drunk
<1> and a stupid ***
<5> US_Male: Do you attend condo ***ociation meetings?
<4> nah
<4> waste of time
<3> I started our arguing the obvious nature of Grants Corruption, part of it biased by his drinking and also Shermans hatred of politics and dislike of Grants political career cause he saw it change the man.
<5> US_Male: Do you pay dues to them?
<4> yeah that's part of teh deal
<3> but thats not fair given the degree of dissenters.
<5> US_Male: how much per month?
<1> FT, i will give you this, grant was NOT a GREAT president
<5> US_Male: At least they pay your property taxes, right?
<3> Some say he was the best civil rights president next to johnson (JOhnson was lousy about everything but civil rights)
<4> bastards raised it to 345 but that includes insirance
<1> he did the best he could with what he had
<4> insurance
<5> US_Male: $345? ****. That's high.
<4> yeah
<1> FT, in some ways I wished he was still alive
<1> just so he could see
<5> US_Male: That's one more thing I can't stand about condos.
<1> i would love his generalship
<1> he would say "KICK IRANS ***!"
<1> unite the people
<3> Rusty, Now I havent made up my mind, I may come around and think he was one of the best, or I may think he was a lousy president, or I may fall in the middle but no more from consensus of history, but next time from apply my own intellect to his achievements and to the claims against him.
<5> US_Male: They could ***ess you $10K for some repair work, couldn't they?
<1> and kick irans ***
<1> i know it in my heart
<4> not me personally no
<1> but he would not move without a country united
<4> they can psread it out over everyone
<1> you have to unite the country
<5> US_Male: No, but they could ***ess everyone that same 10K. Right?
<4> yeah if they can get it approved
<1> presidents think they can start wars these days without the unification of th ecountry and on a whim
<3> its sort of like in some ways Nixon getting caught doing the exact same things Kennedy and Johndson did. Nixons sins will never be forgiven by history nor should then, but We have ignored htose same sins when it applies to presidents before him.
<4> I guess
<3> LBJ and JFK
<1> we don't NEED the UN
<1> we NEED the unification of the country
<5> US_Male: I like my situation better. One vote. Mine.
<1> heh the biggest mistake these days is that we try to unite the world against a common enemy
<1> and we forget to ask our own people
<5> US_Male: I'm going back to my straberries now.
<4> MrRod I don't think they can realistically do that though. Not everyone has the 10k
<0> 426: can't we have both?
<7> Donkeys are our common enemy
<4> ok seeya
<1> Swigert yes but not by superceding the USA first
<1> we need to take it to the american people FIRST
<5> US_Male: I may plant the carrots too while I'm out there. See, I'm being productive today.
<1> we need THEIR commitment
<4> hehe
<8> lmao.. the judge, napolitano from FOX is gonna be on coast2coast tonight
<7> The Judge rocks, little to moderate personal views, but he knows da law
<0> 426: the UN cannot overrule the US
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