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Comments:
<0> Twobar All you need is the swelling organ music and the sound cue for thunder...
<1> pirates*
<2> But the point is nothing has changed, People have be whipped up into a state of frenzy by ditsy dames like whats her name Malkin who almost cried on Oreilly because he liked the Bush plan ahaha. And then all the talk radio hosts and the sons of the old men who when i was a kid warned me of the yellow peril.
<0> Twobar That's not political debate, that's melodrama.
<3> FedUp, lets start with this....
<2> have be, (been) see I cant talk english ;)
<4> we weren't in an arms race in 1940
<5> i love how liberals conveniently forget their greatest heros FDR and Kennedy both got us in costly wars
<6> someone should grab Geraldo and shave that **** off his upper lip
<7> Lithium: I already conceded you the one trillion ... adjusted for inflation it probably is equivalent of 5 to 10, but I grant you the numbers
<3> FedUp here is the origin of the terms , as we today use them...
<8> OcDoc: yes, it was.
<5> 426: he said since WW2
<3> FedUp "There are usually two general schools of political belief," Franklin D. Roosevelt said in 1941, "liberal and conservative." Liberals, the president continued, understood that "as new conditions and problems arise beyond the power of men and women to meet as individuals, it becomes the duty of the government itself to find new remedies with which to meet them." Conservatives, he said, believed "that there is no necessity f
<5> arms race started right after WWII
<4> Ryan you said 1940 money
<8> OcDoc: one trillion in 1980 is 5 trillion today?
<9> CB: I dunno what the count is. I know I've met a lot of French teachers in both Middle and High schools, and a couple German and Italian as well
<5> 426: no i didnt
<7> Lithium: so how can it be a lot less than one trillion in 1948 if "a large part" of the debt was due to the war?
<5> i said that before
<3> FedUp, my belief is that definition of leftism has gone way overboard but still fits
<10> Twobar: cutoff at: "that there is no necessity f
<8> OcDoc: and did you take into account the nixon/ford years which had the debt double?
<3> bud ok
<3> Conservatives, he said, believed "that there is no necessity for the government to step in."
<7> Lithium: about
<5> i think liberalism is weakness
<4> [23:49] <+Ryan89> you do realize 1940 money is a lot more valuable than 2006 money [23:49] <+Ryan89> thats cause we were in an arms race
<4> you didn't?
<11> "liberalism is a mental disease" =)
<7> Lithium: you mean when the Congress was Democrat?
<5> 426: i said the 2nd sentence in response to something else that was said
<5> dont take it out of context
<3> FedUp "Rounding out his lecture on political theory, Roosevelt noted that "the clear and undisputed fact is that ... at least since 1932, the Democratic Party has been the liberal party, and the Republican Party has been the conservative party."
<0> Twobar Huh? Are you saying that your definition of "leftism" fits with Roosevelt's definition of "liberal"?
<4> it still doesn't negate <+Ryan89> you do realize 1940 money is a lot more valuable than 2006 money
<5> but fine. 1950's money is more valuable than 2006 money
<5> that was said earlier
<4> not really
<3> FedUp, yep. Only they abused the **** out of it.
<5> then he said the debt didnt skyrocket until after wwII
<5> I said yeah "we were in an arms race"
<0> Twobar "They" who?
<4> the products we buy today couldn't even be TOUCHED by BILL GATES back then
<3> FedUp, until today, leftism offers NO OTHER solutions that dont involve more govt
<3> FedUP, the left is they
<8> OcDoc: in 1950 the debt was 257 billion, nowhere near a trillion
<2> Those old ****ing rednecks I had to listen to when I worked in the gun shop, It used to drive me nuts that I knew more about politics at 13 than they did at 50. all they thought about was the yellow peril (Its in the bible) of how the chinese are going to take over. And then The Niggers wanting equal rights.. And Oh well.. They must believe in something terrible or they wouldnt be happy. all the while I was idjicating myself on t
<12> this is sad, twobar, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=386878&in_page_id=1770&ct=5
<4> the computer you are sitting in front of now would have cost MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS to own
<7> Lithium: since we're talking about facts, how many years since 1920 has the Republican Party had the whitehouse and both houses of Congress?
<5> the left is motivated by feeling good about themselves. the right is motivated by the strength of our nation
<2> s and the Libterarian ideals (At that age)
<2> Which I was quite attracted to.
<9> Prior to the Great Depression, federal net debt rose sharply to finance wars and gradually declined afterward both in nominal dollars and as a percentage of national income. The Great Depression was the first peacetime period of sustained federal budget deficits. As a result, net debt had risen to $42.8 billion (nominal dollars) or 44.2 percent of GDP by the end of fiscal year 1940. World War II financing hiked net debt to $241.9 billion
<9> http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/debt.pdf#19
<2> I actually supported the black panthers when they first came out.
<7> Lithium: so now you're saying that a large part of the 1 trillion dollar debt am***ed by the Democrats is NOT due to the war?
<3> FedUp "Roosevelt didn't view the terms as value-neutral. Conservatism was something to be shunned; liberalism was to be celebrated. Yet in the 60 or so years since the New Deal, Republicans have turned the tables on the Democratic Party.
<5> yeah wasnt FDR spending 100% of GDP on WWII?
<7> Lithium: Okay I think I have that straight now
<2> But the civil rights movement was about the only movement I supported in those radical years in american history.
<5> fr33trade: lot of good it did. blacks still havent gotten anywhere
<0> Twobar OK, but if you stick to that, you have to be clear that "leftism" and "the left" means more than just those with a progressive political outlook. Republicans, and those that most of the country call "conservatives" have done a lot to create more government.
<4> bah this whole left and right argument is old anyway
<9> A good way of judging the size of the federal debt, and hence its likely effect on the economy, is, as for an individual, to take it as a ratio of income. The federal debt reached a peak ratio of 114 percent of GDP after World War II and declined to 26 percent by 1981, before rising again. But even with the subsequent deficits, it was still only 51 percent of GDP in 1992. True "balance" in the budget, it might be suggested, would entail no
<12> twobar is a neo-moderate
<4> we are all americans
<7> Timur: so about 25 percent of the one trillion dollar national debt am***ed by the Democrats was due to the war AND the great depression?
<2> The Feminist movement agreed with my libertarian perspetive but only to the point of non extremism and it didnt stop at non extremism, it went to extremism..
<8> OcDoc: it wasnt only democrats, nixon/ford account for at least a 3rd of the debt before reagan
<5> not all americans are strong enough to be conservative
<4> both parties are into this dividing and conquering bull****
<5> liberalism is about appeasement
<4> and are missing the big picture of being american
<5> appeasement of minorities, workers, foreign governments
<9> Oc: where are you getting 25%
<7> Lithium: Nixon/Ford presided over Republican Congress?
<5> democracy is weak
<4> you all are so worried about being left or right you are dropping the ball on what really matters
<5> face it
<7> Timur: 250 billion is 25% of one trillion
<5> 426: tell us all what matters from your moral highground please
<8> OcDoc: they signed the budgets
<9> 250 billion?
<2> Then there was libertinism not libertarianism which also was an emply road. And then the little terrorist groups home grown spawned by leftists movements.. And people still defend the left today, Patty Hearst, And the world wide leftist movements not directly tied to the soviets
<11> that was really gay.
<3> FedUp, historically, the definition of conservative or republican has been to be there if people cant handle their own problems, and to provide public services like education, roads, police, et al. Not build up more government.
<2> Power to the people baby!
<5> libertarianism is just communism by another name
<2> Conservatism is a strength ?
<7> Lithium: oh, like when Clinton REFUSED to sign the budget it was HIS fault?
<9> wars are costly.
<3> US dropped the soap !
<9> I don't see the issue
<5> fr33trade: yep
<11> heheh'
<5> it takes courage to do the right thing
<2> Its easy.. Whats hard is to analyze every issue independently and have your own mind.
<5> not the thing people want you to d
<8> OcDoc: his fault for what?
<7> Lithium: that's not what he said at the time ... he said the Congress failed to send him a budget he could sign
<8> OcDoc: they managed to negotiate, no?
<5> its real easy to capitualite to every protest and whiney complaint like the left does
<4> how about being an American
<5> it takes strength to make the best decisions for america.
<8> the debt rose 188.2% under regan
<7> Lithium: I think you'll agree that when the Democrats were in charge of the budget (CONGRESS, according to the constitution) the Republicans had little to say about it
<4> instead of your stupid bull**** "liberals **** /Republicans ****" bull****
<5> reagan: was a cold warrior
<4> heh
<8> 46% under bush 1
<0> Twobar Fine, but their practicing your "leftism" right now, as you've admitted. And many democrats have protested that.
<13> lol
<8> 26% under bush 2
<13> this silly argument always comes up
<3> FedUp, however: let me try and explain this: Most conservatives put up with our republican politicians, we dont fully trust them, unlike the left which leans heavily on their "heroes" in office.
<7> Lithium: I see ... so if the republicans trimmed the deficit they're still responsible for am***ing the national debt?
<2> Lithium the wealth grew 1000% (I dont really know but it was a lot more than the debt).
<5> lithium: clinton just raised taxes and stifled growth to achieve a surplus
<5> nothing impressive there
<4> "I am republican my way is the best way I am more american, Well I am a leftist and my way is the best way and I am more american"
<5> liberals dont love this country man
<4> i think both parties sound like a bunch of freakin children at times
<5> they feel no pride in it
<8> Ryan89: um, we had great growth under clinton
<3> FedUp, that is what I have said to you 150 times: Bush and the republicans in office now, are half-leftist if not more. I dont like them.
<14> Twobar: I'm sure that Hillary's half-hearted attempts to cater to the right are going over well with the left
<7> Hemi: I am neither ... MY way is the best way
<3> tweek haha yep
<2> And those were programs which were already in place, entitlement programs which got automatic cost of living adjustments which compounded the federal debt by auto pilot.
<2> Carter got built in colas
<5> lithium: yeah tech sector growth. look how great that turned out
<14> (was being sarcastic, dumb****)
<0> Twobar One can also make the argument that cutting taxes in the face of such huge deficits just creates more government in a future time, when that debt becomes so enormous that ignoring it is impossible. So opposing tax cuts, in my view, is not creating more government. It's demanding that the government live within its means now rather than expand to fill those means later.
<4> i wished both parties would just go to freakin canada and stfu so us AMERICANS could get **** done without either parties stupidity
<8> Ryan89: every sector had growth
<7> okay ... I'm going to go read "The Farthest Shore" ... see yuz
<2> so when inflation hit 10% the entitlements went up 10% even if wages went up only 2%
<7> alla yuz all
<5> lithium: we slid into recession as he was leaving office
<5> his tax policies put us there
<2> Im using illustrative exagerations, but there is truth in principle.
<9> Twobar: funny, I see a lot of conservatives giving pretty full support to Republican pols, and of leftists not only not trusting Dem candidates, but not even voting for them. Nader and the Green Party didn't pull votes from the Republicans, much
<8> Ryan89: no, the tech bubble put us there
<7> bye
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