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Comments:
<0> What is the status of the Patriot Act btw?
<1> which is why, IMHO.. if one does not use their 2nd amenmdent right.. their claims about "the rights of others" fall on my ears deaf
<2> Okay, okay.
<0> When is it coming up for reknewal? I remember it had a 1 month extension over the holidays.
<3> Armon, you really do not know ANYTHING about the US
<2> I didn't realize I was talking to fascists... but tell me, then
<2> As an outsides.
<2> As an outsider, even.
<4> Lup|ne: "If you don't use it, you lose it"
<4> ?
<2> I'll agree I'm totally wrong about everything and I won't comment until I have facts. Be happy about it and let's start talking about something useful.
<2> Tell me now, since I'm so bloody ignorant.
<2> What are American principles? Name a few.
<2> No! Better yet.
<1> l0c0: essentially, but also.. they have no problem or have no outcry when the 2nd is attacked repeatedly
<2> What makes America "the best country in the world"?
<2> (I think it is, but I want your reasons.)
<3> Armon, show me anywhere where our forefathers who made the constitution, ever considered that they should be skeptical of the government they themselves founded ?
<2> What fundamental principles make America different from other nations?
<0> Armon: We invented McDonalds.
<5> We invented velcro.
<2> `426Hemi: Yes, and that was in fact their entire point. :) But let's take one question at a time.
<3> Armon thats like making something and then saying "Ohh that won't work"
<1> 426: i'ld ask Armon about the Sedition Act.. but well.. :-)
<2> Okay, anyone with a serious effort?
<5> As far as I'm concerned, that makes any country 'the best.'
<5> cause my velcro wallet PWENS YU
<2> Lup|ne: Haven't even heard of it.
<5> haha
<3> Armon, how about your OWN country?
<5> man that's funny
<2> `426Hemi: My country has "the freedom to express anything that the government is okay with you saying".
<2> `426Hemi: My country is ****, politically.
<4> Lup|ne: then again...the idea of needing a fully automatic ***ault rifle for "home defense" is a pathetic argument. if you live in a neighborhood THAT bad...move.
<4> hehe
<2> But come on.
<2> What seperates America from other countries, idealogically wise?
<5> Unless you live in Europe. In which case any type of nazi memorabelia is banned.
<2> I'm seriously interested.
<1> l0c0: Heh. Well, I own three cl*** III firearms, but I would never use them in such a manner. I know some cop would sieze it, and I'll be out 20-40k
<0> Armon: Sorry about McDonalds. I don't think the USA is the best country in the world. I am a relativist, and a realist. There are many "best countries", most of which belong to the Westernized world. Our opinions are ultimately tainted because of our (national) environment.
<3> then shouldn't you be worried more about your own country than what USA does?
<4> Lup|ne: i have no issue with the 2nd amendment. I support it. I got my first rifle at 10 and was taught at 7 proper gun/rifle saftey. To this day, I enjoy going out and doing target shooting
<2> `426Hemi: I am! It just so happens that the US airforce guards my country so my country won't do **** unless the US okays it.
<2> `426Hemi: But nevermind my own ****hole of a country.
<4> But, I think there's a limit to what private citizens can own
<2> What seperates America from the rest of the world in ideology? Can anyone please comment on that?
<4> there was an article in the paper a few days ago about how mexican drug organizations are sending people to the US to buy firearms
<1> l0c0: sure.. and where that line is, can be debated.. but my point essentially was: one who ignores the 2nd, has no standing to complain about any afront of the liberty of others.
<4> funny that
<2> Renea: Finally someone making some sense. But anyway, I need an opinion from someone who believes America is the best (which it may very well be)
<3> HAHAHAHA
<3> thats like the blind leading the blind there
<2> `426Hemi: Mmm? :) What makes America so great? I'm not arguing that it isn't, but I'd like to hear your view on it.
<1> l0c0: that makes no sense, given how cheap fully automatic AK-47's can be had just south of the boarder
<3> what makes america great?
<2> `426Hemi: Yeah? :)
<1> unless it is now a "status system" to own a US gun
<3> Apple pie, baseball, and Rosey the riveter
<1> er.. status symbol
<1> ugh
<4> Lup|ne: if they're american citizen sure they have standing to complain
<2> `426Hemi: And seriously? :)
<4> Lup|ne: that's what makes america america
<0> Armon: I did a study on the English legal tradition. If I had to narrow it down from Western nations, I'd say those that derive their freedoms from the English legal traditions.
<4> we have the freedom to bitch and whine when we dont' like something
<3> ok add in Ben Franklin if you want
<1> loco: well, without the 2nd, there is no rational expecation to have any other rights
<2> `426Hemi: Every nation has people like Ben Franklin. Every nation has its national food and national sport.
<4> no free speech w/o guns?
<2> `426Hemi: So that does little to distinguish it ideologically.
<1> its the cl***ic line.. forgot how it went exactly.. first they came for the jews, and no one stood up for them..
<1> loco: yes, we'ld have no free speech, in fact, we'ld have no US, without firearms
<3> Armon, hows this for you, we are THE MOST diverse country in the world we have EVERY religion, we have EVERY race of people
<3> and we generally all get along with each other in that diversity
<1> 426: but strangely, there are no European-americans :-/
<2> `426Hemi: While that's something to be proud of, that certainly wasn't the case during the foundation of America.
<3> hahaha nah NOT at all
<0> 426Hemi: I like that reply. It also sounds... leftist :P
<2> `426Hemi: Besides, I think you seriously underestimate the diversity around the world by now.
<3> Armon, you mean when Europe was selling us slaves?
<2> They have Chinese neighbourhoods in Canada, Switzerland... hell, almost in Iceland! (Except it's too small to be called a neighborhood ;))
<6> we are diverse and we mostly get along = leftist?
<1> armon: really? what nation has such a diversity in its leaders?
<2> `426Hemi: When in America there were whites slaughtering Indians, for example.
<5> armon: is it like a house? heh
<3> Armon, you have to remember that at our founding it was EUROPEANS that were bringing over THEIR ideology
<3> so don't give me that bull****
<0> Armon: In the theme of 426's statement, and my first attempt at codifying the US as the best, we have a written Constitution that is (despite the cry of my conservative friends) organic enough to change with the times.
<4> yes we would
<3> Armon I am indian
<4> only we'd be paying higher taxes
<4> haha
<3> we slaughtered as much as we got slaughtered
<2> `426Hemi: So freedom of expression is a worthless European idea?
<7> Renea .. nah .. it would sound leftist if he said "we generally all get along with each other so long as we recognize that some groups are entitled to live off us "
<2> `426Hemi: So much for getting along with diversity, huh? ;)
<2> Besides.
<1> a european idea? that is an amercan ideal
<0> CB: I said almost =P
<3> Armon, its quite obvious that our constitution is based on principles that the fores brought with them from Europe
<3> not ALL of them but alot of them
<2> Tolerance of diversity is admirable, I admit. But there's diversity everywhere. It's a big world, the US is by no means a leader in those areas.
<2> `426Hemi: Allright.
<2> Besides, your tolerance isn't ideology, it's a social phenomenon.
<3> ARmon, we are the most diverse country on the planet
<3> period its indisputable
<2> When the founding fathers founded the United States of America... what were their principles upon which they called it a free country?
<2> `426Hemi: Allright, I'll give you that. That's still far from being anything to distinguish America world-wise.
<2> Holland, for example.
<3> http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed.htm <--- there you go Armon, enjoy reading
<1> ELF & ALF members indicted on domestic terrorism
<2> For its love of democracy and individual freedom.
<2> Or Switzerland, with 4 official languages and direct democracy since 1848.
<1> armon: that is a testiment to the power of the american ideology of freedom
<2> Lup|ne: NOW we're getting somewhere!
<3> http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/ <---- and there if you like
<2> Finally somebody who understands the damn question. ;)
<2> Lup|ne: Okay, the American ideology of freedom. Let's explore that.
<2> Lup|ne: In what ways is America more free than other states today?
<1> well, one of the most significant is that we have the 2nd amendment
<3> Switzerland, you mean the same country that has been denying immigration to their country lately
<2> Lup|ne: The right to bear arms.
<2> Lup|ne: Allright. Surely you must be able to name greater freedoms than that, for example the rule of one's own mind and body or something.
<2> I'm guessing here.
<8> Codified propery rights
<2> Keep it coming.
<8> Is important
<1> armon: all other rights are derived from having the first
<8> You own what you own
<2> Lup|ne: I know. What about the right to... say... being able to whore yourself without the government deeming it "immoral"?
<2> Or the right to sing about drugs in the 1960's?
<1> without the means to stand up against govn't, one is at the mercy of the govn't to have any other "rights"
<0> Herzen: Except when Chicago wants your land to increase the runways of O'Hare.
<2> Or the right to peacefully protest on the streets of New York?
<8> Renea, Yeah thats actually too bad
<8> Renea, Stephen Harper has proposed putting property rights in the Canadian constitution
<2> What about the right to put whatever substance in your own body that you please (provided it hurts no one else, of course)?
<8> Which I totally agree with
<1> armon: "on the streets" of NYC? that generally is not a peaceful protest
<0> Armon: Cohen v. California. **** the Draft. Only case I remember.
<8> Lup|ne, the boy is just a Hedonist
<1> herzen: L0L =-)
<2> It seems to me that you're free to do anything you like, as long as the government is okay with it.
<3> Switzerland the pin head in the middle of Europe prides itself on having 4 official languages hahaha ohh thats hilarious, boy what diversity, that couldn't be because they are surrounded by countries that speak 4 different languages could it?
<8> Lup|ne, America is bad because it doesn't allow the freedom to shoot up, and be a prostitute
<2> That form of freedom is ancient, and no different than any other free country, like for example Iceland.
<8> Frankly I wouldn't want to live in a country that had either of those freedoms
<2> We call ourselves free, but when **** hits the fan, turns out it ain't all that free after all.
<1> armon: right, which is why the right to bear arms is so important.. any other "freedom" is merely thre because the govn't is not actively supressing it
<2> `426Hemi: That's exactly the reason, and in America... wouldn't just so happen to be exactly the same? ;)
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