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Comments:
<0> He lost his Senate seat when President Bush went to Georgia and accused him of being unpatriotic because, while he sponsored his own homeland security bill, he dared oppose Bush's version of the same legislation.
<1> Libertine, he contributed to america's defeat in vietnam
<0> Hold on glock jeez.
<0> I have to find it.
<2> (not to suggest I would enlist now if I wasn't too old)
<3> panini: hah..
<3> panini: so objecting to a war makes you a traitor now?
<3> panini: look i think kerry is unremarkable uninteresting leader figure; but geez; traitor? come on
<4> accused him of being unpatriotic... questioned his patriotism... what did he ACTUALLY say about Cleland?
<3> shoe me kerry taking money from the VC government and we'll talk about him being a 'traitor'
<5> panini well hell... if that's the litmus test then every politician in office during the Vietnam War was a traitor
<6> KoBushi: sure some say the "dialog/ discussion" is still going on. But when you look at statments by high officials and actions of our press of late, during a time of war, you would think what we knew was all null and void. The word Treason no longer applies to anyone except spies without a exchange deal.
<3> shoe/show
<2> I am EXTERMELY ambivalent about the war. I find it very difficult to come to a conclusion.
<7> haha roadkil
<1> Libertine, he committed warcrimes
<3> panini: so go try him for warcrimes; that isn't treason
<1> that is not disputed, he even testified to that effect in congress
<3> treason != warcriminal
<8> Libertine sure it does
<1> Libertine, depends on the defintion of "is"
<3> no..
<7> yaakov-well i give you credit. a local host i know who isn't registered dem or repub and doesn't jump on either side's bandwagon was the same way. he didn't know what to conclude. and that shows conscience. i started out 100% pro war on all of it but i'm slowly pulling back from that. its a dicey issue
<9> you kow.. i'm curious about that the commenter defines as "avoided the draft"
<10> Tiger missed the cut
<10> first time ever for a major
<11> = means equals
<10> ;(
<3> the definition we use for treason is very clear.
<11> != means does not equal
<8> Libertine if some dies becuase he lied
<5> (since all of the politicians contributed to the US "loss" in vietnam, for refusing to fight it as an actual war)
<8> it a war crime
<8> or aid to crime, or he killed his own for the lie not to come out
<3> baaba: yep. i use short hand a lot.
<8> that is he killed those who he commited treason against
<8> it a crime of war
<3> gpoo: people dying because you lie is not treason.
<0> Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James R***mann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."
<11> i'm just clarifying it because people seem to think that != means "is not"
<0> In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.
<4> Heh... couldn't find it, eh?
<11> when it does not actually mean that, it means "does not equal"
<4> Imagine my shock.
<3> baaba :)
<0> The guys lied, he had 20 years to correct the citation and the record and he didn't.
<2> godfist: I agree with much of what appears to be the reason for the war, but, like I would agree with invasive surgery to remove cancer, I would have to consider the surgeon as well. In this case I am afraid there is a great deal of dubious leadership going on.
<0> He accepted the citation without reading it?
<0> He took a bronze star and didn't even skim over the part about constant fire to all units?
<3> United States Code at 18 U.S.C. 2381 states "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
<2> godfist: But I don't know exactly WHY it is happening. It seems that a lot of competent, intelligent people are, in aggregate, incompetent.
<7> what are you saying bush is a total liar and shoud be impeached or what? don't be vague and use euphemisms like dubious.
<4> Okay bbl... since sintient gave up on substantiating his cleland claim... and the lil lady is getting bored... I'm gonna go have some fun.
<2> godfist: I am not talking about the President.
<3> so which is greater folks; our freedom of speech? or the act of treason?
<6> Libertine: aid and comfort is the active part.
<7> yaa-oh ok. well again who is 'leadership' heh
<9> Glock21 is gonna get his groove on
<3> RoadKil: the problem is; people say 'speech' is giving aid and comfort.
<3> so which is it?
<9> yeehaw
<6> Libertine: or the unactivated part in our case.
<2> godfist: The DoD and State Departments.
<3> is our speech, our freedom of political speech; limited by the threat of punishment via treason?
<7> i think the president made a weak case for going to war being wmd's, terrorism in the middle east region was better.
<3> which is greater?
<3> people should think about that... before leveling these treason charges around like candy.
<0> Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has R***mann, the Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. R***mann says he has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing votes to Kerry at a crucial time.
<12> Libertine , the treasonous concept of free rights
<2> godfist: Planning seems to be based on best case scenarios, and a disregard for genuinely important questions about strategy seems to be SOP.
<3> CryHavoc: ah.. right.. damn sedition acts ;)
<5> Libertine well it depends on who's speaking of course ;)
<13> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5087638.stm
<7> yaakov-genuinely important questions like what? drop the $10 words and talk straight
<3> look, i think Kerry is a douchebag, but even I have to defend him from these 'traitor' comments.
<6> Libertine: Hrm, don't know what the Supreme court has said on this but I know that ACLU would fight for your right to say thouse killing our troups are freedom fighters and that Bush and America are evil and should be rendered unable to procecute any war any where cause war is evil.. etc etc.
<0> glock21 [13:43] <0> He [Mcclelan] lost his Senate seat when President Bush went to Georgia and accused him of being unpatriotic because, while he sponsored his own homeland security bill, he dared oppose Bush's version of the same legislation.
<0> Wth glock21 I said that 5 minutes ago.
<10> Timur: sigh
<3> RoadKil: i'd side with the ACLU on that.
<12> Our Constitution "reekes of Fell Sedition, as if the rights given to the commons should be enumerated by those not of the gentry, so as to not have that right in the first place/"
<14> Zarqawi's strategy was to spark a civil war between Sunni Muslims, who supported Saddam Hussein, and the majority Shi'ites, who now hold political power.
<14> Zarqawi did this by recruiting foreign Sunni suicide bombers to attack Shi'ite markets, schools, mosques and other public places
<3> RoadKil: the freedom to be wrong; and say what you think; even if it is wrong; is critical to the democratic process.
<14> it was all the same to him, he wasn't iraqi either
<4> accused him of being unpatriotic... questioned his patriotism... what did he ACTUALLY say about Cleland?
<4> That was NOT what he ACTUALLY said.
<12> Our Constitution scared the hell out of Europe
<14> oops, sorry, I seem to have interrupted another conversation
<10> CryHavoc: to hell with freedom!
<7> yea really glock
<7> :)
<4> Nice try... and good luck.
<13> "The beauty is they don't have to fly into a building, just crash the flipping thing."
<3> RoadKil: whether im calling Bush a Nazi; Kennedy a Communist, or the KKK the greatest thing to happen to Louisiana since blackened redfish.
<14> "Fell Sedition" ?
<4> I'll check the logs later to see if you can actually answer the question sometime today.
<2> godfist: I am speaking in generalities because the topic is general. Things like poor planning for post-invasion, ignoring officers on the ground who say things that don't fit the a priori plan of action, etc. NORMAL things that happen in large endeavours.
<7> who here is it that has 1 GB of #politics logs? wow
<12> gloriae that comment (sic) was uttered by an unknown member of the Emglish peerage
<13> Yaakov: agree
<9> i have about 500megs of #politics logs
<15> Hrm
<13> one can agree with strategy and criticize tactics.
<14> yeah, CryHavoc , it's funny how the french have gained the reputation in leftoid minds for having backed the american revolution
<3> who was glock talking to?
<13> glo: ?
<5> godfist anyone who's been logging since last week? ;)
<14> as if we were inspired by the french revolution (which took place a decade later)
<10> Timur: the terrorists were apparently watching napolean dynamite
<12> they did not do it for us...they did so to steal from England :)
<7> poor planning for post invasion? does that mean the soliders should have been able to stop all the looting and seal up the entire iraqi border on the spot to stop terrorists from coming in? jeez
<14> do'nt mind me, I've been learning more about the historical french recently
<12> Geopolitics...gotta love it
<3> and our revolution did inspire theirs :)
<2> godfist: So, as Sun Tsu famously said, "A battle plan never survives contact with the enemy." Yet the high leadership of DoD and State seem to have written their battle plan based on a bunch of very rosy guesses and are loathe to change it now, when they SHOULD, and want to sweep the objections to it under the rug.
<12> Our law is an improvement upon Queens/Napoleonic law...
<2> godfist: As for the President, I think he is getting lousy advice and would make better choices with better advice.
<13> Pub: lol
<12> thought the terrorists were watching Harold Lloyd
<13> glo: we were inspired in part by French writers, who also inspired the French revolution, and France aided the Revolutionaries
<13> nternational support played a major role in the success of the colonies' revolution. The efforts of Franklin and others in negotiating with the French for supplies and aid were vital. In fact, some European soldiers came to America, inspired by the revolution that was occurring. Notable among these arrivals were Baron Von Steuben from Prussia and the young French Marquis de Lafayette. Both played significant parts in improving the America
<6> Libertine: but at the core for me something is not right... I can not put my finger on it but something is not correct. Over focusing of the rights to speak aid and comfort, right to expose cl***ified info to media, for political gain or media one upsmanship? I just have a bitterness about the intier antiwar and demo political statigy. Something is not right if our troups feel like they ar the butt of a big policital joke. Asked to die for poeple that need
<3> i remember when bush ran in 2000; part of the political packaging was that he woudl surround himself with great thinkers.. heh
<7> yaakov that sounds nice but in reality you haven't named one specific part of their bad plan that you disagree with that could then actually be discussed. but ok at least you didn't lay all the blame on bush :/
<12> Sartre...and Rabbelais
<6> Libertine: for the most part he did.
<10> le existentialisque or some crap
<10> hehe
<12> Libertine wanted to be in charge of Wildlife
<7> french is cool publius. forget the politics, french is cool
<3> RoadKil: regardless if you question their motives; even you can see the grounds for their rights to do it. it's ugly; but it's necessary to maintain and defend those rights. even when being used by people you dislike who are doing bad things.
<13> http://xenophongroup.com/mcjoynt/volunt.htm
<10> godfist: I don't have a problem with france...shhhhh
<12> the French have the most melodic National anthem
<13> Sartre? lived in the 20th century
<2> godfist: I was giving my opinion, not writing an editorial on some bone-headed decision by DoD. I am not trying to convince anyone, I am talking about what I see. Sorry that I won't get into details that just generate heat and very little light.
<12> my mistake tamerlane
<13> There were at least 87 officers of the French Royal army that served in the the US Continental Army, and about four French army or naval officers served with John Paul Jones' naval squadron. The estimated number of French who served 'in the ranks' of the US forces is higher, but not well documented.)
<3> for that reason i support flag burners, and raciets in their rights to speak.
<3> racists, even
<13> try Rousseau, Montesquieu, Voltaire, etc
<12> France from 1793 - 1805 anarchic
<12> Rabbelais
<12> and the one who uttered I exist therefore I am
<2> It is a shame, really, that Runsfeld appears so disconnected from reality. he gives great press conferences.
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