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Comments:
<0> politics are often coercive.
<1> OcDoc but d you think anarchy is LESS stable than other forms of government?
<2> Free: unless it improves function in the process it can't help me
<2> KoBushi: hmmm ...
<3> politics are by definition coercive. politics is the practice of impressing your will and government upon others who may not agree with your ideals.
<2> KoB: I'll have to consider that
<1> OcDoc ok
<2> Zaw: that's ridiculous
<3> OcDoc: what exactly do you think politics are?
<2> politics is whatever way society chooses to settle questions
<4> Freetrade: Intel has a great utility for the centrino-processors.. I've squeezed almost double the runtime on my 700m
<2> it can be coercive or consensive
<5> KoBushi: It could be.
<3> OcDoc: yes, by impressing their views and government upon others who may not agree with your ideals.
<2> and usually ends up being a combination
<5> KoBushi: But it isnt necessarily.
<2> Zaw: not always
<5> KoBushi: There have been chaotic instances of statism (most recent example being post-katrina NOLA) but that doesnt (for you) discredit the merits of said ideology..
<1> I just want to find a genie, make my 3 wishes, and set about becomming the ruler of a city-state floating in the sky over the atlantic ocean... is that so wrong?
<2> Zaw: there is a range of questions ... some questions I don't care how they agree as long as I know what's expected of me .. others are important and I will not comply without force
<5> OcDoc: Government necessarily restricts someone. That's its purpose.
<2> icmps: those are temporary emergency situations
<1> icmps what happened after katrina is an example of anarchy though :)
<5> KoBushi: Fine with me :P
<5> KoBushi: Nah, it isnt.
<2> icmps: true
<1> because the government was suddenly absent
<2> and that can be advantageous
<1> thus; anarchy ( lack of government)
<5> KoBushi: State police officers and national guardsmen roaming the street is not an example of anarchy.
<1> icmps so limited in numbers that tey may as well not have been there
<6> government/police shouldn't have to hold everybody's hand after every rain, windstorm
<2> icmps: it is when the police are temporarily a syndicate
<5> It's an example of a lack of CIVILIZATIOn.
<5> Not anarchy (or lack of govt)
<3> anarchy isn't the lack of government, it's the lack of an authority or hierarchy.
<5> When people vacate an area and only a handful remain (who are inclined to criminal behavior anyway .. for other reasons) you tend to get chaos.
<2> icmps: you have to admit that it is an example of how people behave without government
<5> The people vacated, the government (by and large) did not.
<7> its cuz new orleans was all black people
<1> anyway; ven if I agreed that post-katrina was an example of chaos from a government form... it still holds that there are examples of stable forms of government... but there aren't examples of stable anarchies
<5> There are examples of civility in NOLA immediately after the hurricane ONLY BECAUSE the people *defended themselves*
<2> icmps: no, what we have now is chaos all the time
<5> Not anarchy.
<5> OcDoc: No, I dont.
<2> icmps: the whole world is a chaotic system with local choices of strange attractors
<5> OcDoc: it's an example of no such thing.
<8> o...m...f...G...!
<5> Because the government NEVER CEASED to exist at ANY POINT during that storm.
<8> they're killing off almost all of the old characters!
<5> The only thing that changed was the m*** evacuation of PEOPLE
<8> ****ERS!
<2> icmps: what you call "chaos" is when the society suddenly switches out of an attractor and is swinging towards another attractor
<1> icmps : it still holds that there are examples of stable forms of government... but there aren't examples of stable anarchies
<8> damn writers are making up for not killing anyone last season :P
<5> OcDoc: It was chaotic. It was NOT anarchy.
<8> YOU BASTARD!
<5> It was NOT an example of no govt.
<2> icmps: true, but that's not the point
<0> good, some people need to be restricted from certain activities.
<2> Timur: true
<0> right
<5> OcDoc: whats the point?
<2> that's why I am not an anarchist
<0> and until an adequate civilization exists, government fills the void
<2> icmps: the whole human universe is a chaotic systme
<1> icmps but NOLA was an example of how most/all people would behave without government of any sort to enforce decent behavior in them
<0> chaos all the time? :)
<2> icmps: we to some extent get to pick which of several meta-stable systems we will live under
<8> Timur: civilization doesn't exist without a government...the 2 are intrinsically linked existentially
<5> KoBushi: And the people who did not steal ?
<0> someone's doing too much medical grade coke
<1> since we, at worst, saw the behavior of thoe who disreguard the law already
<5> Who protected their property and sought to clean up ?
<9> thats not true because when you take away order suddenly it creates chaos but when you allow chaos to reign it usually eventaully creates some kind of order
<3> minarchism is anarchy in practice.
<2> Zaw: not it's not
<5> KoBushi: Except, the colonists there didn't require the govt they had.
<5> It was forced on them by Penn and the King.
<10> yikes
<2> spliiiiiiiiiiitttt
<3> OcDoc: it's as close as you're going to ever get to implementing 'anarchy' in the real world.
<1> icmps they had thier own governments as well
<1> at the town level
<3> technically, it isn't. functionally speaking it is.
<5> It's not as if you can say what little govt they had "created" order and facilitated PAs extensive growth..
<2> Zaw: you haven't read what I said ... there is no such thing as "close" in a chaotic system
<9> I love this show
<9> Even though its propaganda
<9> its very entertaining
<1> icmps thier local governments created order yes
<5> KoBushi: I disagree.
<5> Only society can create order.
<2> Zaw: changes of government and/or social systems tend to be catastrophic, not continuous
<1> did they not punish murderers?
<5> Post-Katrina proves that, too.
<5> Well, Society and also a little martial law cant hurt ;)
<1> martial law -> government
<1> :)
<3> OcDoc: you're confusing 'chaos' and 'anarchy' like you were trained to do. please step back and think. in order to preserve the anarchist community, you're going to need a commonly recognized suite of plans to defend the community. call it minarchism, call it self-governing anarchism, whatever.
<5> Either society OR martial law :P
<5> (or both..)
<11> arachnidism
<2> KoBushi: icmps apparently doesn't consider unofficial government to be government unless it is coercive
<2> KoBushi: I admit I can't follow that well
<12> Whats extended memory 64 technology ?
<5> OcDoc: It wasn't exactly coercive, though..
<6> "blow" on USA network
<1> OcDoc well; even townships have coercive government... ie: how dod colonists in PA act when someone's son got thier daughter pregnant before marriage? :)
<2> Zaw: no I'm using the word "chaos" in its ordinary sense to mean lack of order and chaotic in it's mathematical sense
<5> OcDoc: They sure as **** refused for as long as they could to enforce Britains taxes & laws ..
<4> FT: primarily, its a way to address more than 4GB of ram directly
<1> certainly thy were coercive then
<3> OcDoc: oh, i thought we were discussing society constructs and politics, not math. sorry.
<1> the coerciveness of government isn't a matter of policy, so much a matter of oppertunity
<2> KoBushi: I don't know .. how did they react?
<1> if a government, however small, has not acted coercivly, it is only because it has not yet had the temptation to do so
<5> LOL
<2> Zaw: society constructs ARE mathematical
<11> Government has only one way to enforce what it's laws: Brute Force.
<13> by gunpoint
<3> OcDoc: oh yeah, how so exactly?
<11> by any point
<2> Zaw: I'm ***erting that social systems are part of a universal chaotic system
<12> Lupine, I see.
<5> OcDoc: Society is inherently chaotic?
<13> come see the violence inherent in the system!
<11> That is the ONLY power that government has. Brute Force.
<3> OcDoc: you're not factoring in entropy, if you're going to go there.
<13> help! help! i'm being repressed!
<12> I must of set something up wrong, I ended up only recording 39 minutes and it stopped recording.
<2> Zaw: that you can't describe a local social system on a continuum from anarchy or chaos to tyrrany
<12> I have to see what the problem is, maybe I set a setting wrong
<2> FEMA: heh
<12> BBL
<1> bbias; gonna try rebooting the router to see if it'll grab a differnt dns server
<2> Zaw: in chaotic systems starting conditions that are very similar can end up with wildly different outcomes
<3> OcDoc: entropy and social constructs have nothing to do with each other. i do not agree at all that primal territorial and hierarchal behavior has anything to do with the laws of physics.
<2> Zaw: the butterfly effect
<14> what's going on?
<2> Zaw: so you think social systems can never be described mathematically?
<2> IRC is very chaotic this evening
<3> OcDoc: perhaps, but not along the mathematical terms that we currently understand and know. (or think that we understand and know, for that matter)
<2> smirk
<7> democracy sux
<10> PENIXOR devoiced for lameness
<11> genius
<3> antifed: technically it's the tyranny of the majority of the minority.
<15> true democracy is indeed, dangerious.
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