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Comments:
<0> Damn I wish this tape would end ;)
<1> Also; w/o control on agrobusiness they would move ven faster to conglomiration; since the remaining small outfits (except the few with a nitch) would stop being able to make a profit on the small scale they operate on as prices drop. Though I sppose if all market controls dropped at one time, they culd sart gorwing pot and poppies to sel to drug manufacturers
<2> antifed: regulate = promote?
<3> KoBushi: Today, perhaps.
<3> KoBushi: But that's not what would happen in a free market
<2> KoBushi: do you have a reason for wanting to protect the small outfits?
<1> icmps um... that is what would happen if we created a free market :)
<2> or just on general principles?
<3> Well, you dont "create" a free market
<4> Kobushi: look at that video :-)
<0> back to the subject of Abstract rights vs concrete rights. I hope Alito brings more certtude to property rights, and also I wish finally some supreme court had the balls to enshrine gun rights which are already enumerated in the constitution into Stare Decisis as well.
<1> OcDoc not really... other than to keep from one outfit owning all of the food supply :)
<0> had = has
<1> Lupine DNS servers seem to be down, no HTTP for me
<0> Has the balls
<1> icmps sure you do, since there isn't one now
<4> oh..
<2> KoBushi: what happens to a farm if you don't farm it for a couple of years?
<0> I would be much more alarmed if the 1st amendment right to free speech was infringed.
<2> does it disappear?
<3> KoBushi: The only reason why one company could even conceive of owning all of the food supply is because of government regulation and subsidies over the past 100 years that have helped them maintain and grow to such size..
<1> OcDoc no, but how is that relivant?
<3> KoBushi: That doesn't happen in a free market with unregulated competition..
<5> We talking about three-way gay marriage yet?
<1> icmps not true; the reason is because companies that make a profit, always begin to buy thier slightly smaller competetors
<5> I bet OcDoc would allow it.
<2> KoBushi: well, if I owned a farm and I couldn't make a profit in a niche market, I'd let it go fallow for a while until the prices went back up
<0> I believe Muslim clerics who are american citizens have a civil right to preach hatred of america to the extent they do not conspire or lead others to commit terrorist acts.
<4> that might be the game.. carolina intercepts.. 2:27 left
<3> KoBushi: They are inherently restricted by competition ..
<1> icmps most of the large agro businesses don't survive on subsidies, the small farmer does
<1> icmps not so
<3> without a government protecting them .. they dont grow endlessly.
<2> MrRod: allow what?
<6> thank you :)
<0> Ideology vs Conspiracy
<5> OcDoc: How would you pay your mortgage in the meantime?
<1> icmps yu ***ume competeition is always adiquate, it isn't
<0> IN the UK they just make it illegal
<5> OcDoc: Allow three-way gay marriage.
<2> MrRod: why would I have a mortgage on a family farm?
<0> Yeah if its not a US citizen I believe you can deport them for almost any reason.
<6> Hi all!
<2> MrRod: didn't I inherit it from my grandma?
<5> OcDoc: Commonly they do.
<0> But a US citizen should never lose the right to free speech.
<3> KoBushi: I'm not saying they wouldnt buy some of their smaller competitors. I'm arguing that it would amount to them (eventually) owning all of the food supply.. That's unrealistic.
<3> WITHOUT foreign help i.e: from a governent.
<0> IN some countries its illegal to deny the hoolocaust.
<3> government
<2> MrRod: how many farmers do you know?
<0> or to engage in hate speech
<1> icmps yes, they d, just like the oil & coal companies in the early industrial revolution... who grew large enough t later innitiate government protection with money
<0> those are much more real and tangible examples of usurpation of civil rights, right now.
<3> KoBushi: What would they do if they couldnt buy protection from the govt?
<5> OcDoc: Oh, I could go on and on about all the farmers I know who have mortgages and who have to farm every year to make money for their payments but, honestly, I don't know a single one.
<2> subsidies help small farmers by paying them not to grow food ... how does that help your argument?
<3> Would there be the oil cartel as there is today?
<1> icmps perhaps not 100% of the food supply, there wuld likely still be home farmers, and small gardens, but 99% isn't inimaginable
<0> 1st and 2nd amendment
<3> Would their growth have continued?
<0> Our supreme court has been good about the 1st amendment, not to good about the 2nd amendment.
<2> MrRod: they sound like pretty stupid farmers
<1> icmps likely larger than there is today
<4> According to a November Washington Post profile of federal examiner Russell Stormer, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has, since 1790, granted about 30,000 patents to people who have imagined unique ways to reinvent the wheel (or at least improve upon it). [Washington Post, 11-25-05]
<0> Whats the 3rd amendment off hand ?
<0> hehe
<3> KoBushi: They would have to be doing a pretty good job to put all but 1% of their competition out of business ;)
<0> I think its been good on the 4th.
<2> MrRod: my family's farm has never failed to make a profit and they've never had a mortgage
<1> icmps not really... once you reac 51% it's easy
<7> Lupine: hahahahah
<7> yeah, sad, isn't it?
<2> MrRod: my cousin is so successful at farming he farms other peoples' property too
<3> KoBushi: If oil cartels would be larger today absent government protection .. why would they bother buying it in the first place?
<6> I can't believe that any intelligent country would even entertain the thought of debating the existance of the holocaust
<2> MrRod: during the Great Depression they bought farms around them.
<1> icmps ... I don't understand the question, wy would WHO bother buying WHAT in the first place?
<5> OcDoc: What state is this?
<2> MrRod: my dad chased mules around the field barefoot to plow
<2> MrRod: Illinois
<1> please identify "they" and "it" :)
<3> KoBushi: You said that if oil cos couldnt buy protection from govt, theyd be larger than today... If that's so, why would they bother buying it ?
<3> why would oil cos bother buying govt protection
<0> Well I knew a lot of farmers who took cheap government loans, and then defaulted on them and kept the farm and the caddilac and the winnebego and the beautiful shotgun hanging over the fireplace.
<1> icmps that's not what I said moron
<3> Yes, it is.
<1> no...
<8> ewg.org
<3> I asked the question. You said "theyd be larger"
<1> I said oil companies bought oil protection in the industrial rev.
<3> to facilitate their growth.
<1> that was a seperate topic all together genius
<5> I need to take out the trash.
<1> later, AFTER they bought protection; there were government conrols, and anti-trust suits
<1> ie: those protections wen away, and were replaced wth restrictions
<0> I was ripped off by a farmer in 1982 who owed me $5000 in 1982 dollars, a farmer who got farm subsidies and cheap government loans.
<0> I was not happy.
<3> KoBushi: Because the govt finally had to recognize their voting constituency and restricted the growth that the previous protections brought ..
<5> FreeTrade: Did you set up a posse?
<2> Free: the myth of the family farm ... sigh
<3> If the govt protections did nothing to help the oil companies, there would have been no need to restrict them later.
<0> MrRod, No I did a grapes of Wrath to California, the promised land ;)
<5> OcDoc: Good thing Kaliuna isn't here. She's very big on the myth of the family farm.
<0> OcDoc, yep..
<2> around here there are bumper stickers that read "Protect Skagit Farmland ... Concrete is forever"
<1> icmps right... s the scale of size/power is like this: smallest= government restrictions; larger = no government involvement; larger/more powerful = government protections/bribing/empowerment
<0> IN the long run my loss helped me get here so its strange how fate works sometimes.
<1> understand now? :)
<2> MrRod: well, I wouldn't want to offend Kaliuna ... she's good people
<9> Socialist Bachelet Wins Chilean Presidency | http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CHILE_ELECTION?SITE=AKFAI&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
<8> the original family farm was a "homestead"....160 acres....here, the average farm is approx 3-4000 acres
<1> I wasn't saying that buying gov. protection made them smaller
<3> KoBushi: ... And that does exactly what?
<5> OcDoc: Listening to her you'd think we'd starve without the family farm.
<3> It ****ing limits competition.
<3> Restricting small start ups is a great way to stifle competition.
<3> KoBushi: sec
<2> MrRod: I think the family farm is important for two reasons ... people should engage in the lifestyle they prefer, and some are excellent at farming and provided specialty items that big farms don't produce
<1> icmps but lack of controls, allows larger companis to push start ups out/buy them out even more easily.
<2> culturally the family farm is a good thing ... variety and tradition
<5> OcDoc: And, if they can't cut it, then the government should help them. That's the thinking in a lot of areas.
<0> Well yeah, Productive profitable or financially stable family farms are great.. for all the reasons oc doc mentioned. but there is a good reason why ADM ate up a lot of the other family farms.
<3> KoBushi: "<+icmps> Would there be the oil cartel as there is today? \ [07:56PM] <+KoBushi> icmps likely larger than there is today"
<0> and other big corporate farmers.
<3> Is that out of context?
<2> regulations unequally favor big corporations over smaller competition
<3> er
<0> But I know farmers who have done great in niche farming.
<3> sorry forgot the first part of my question :P
<3> sec
<2> MrRod: and that's wrong thinking
<0> WHenever you are up against a big corportation, niche markets are always good almost
<1> icmps ... I thought yu were asing if there had remained a free market with reguards to them; ie: no paid government protections, OR gov restrictions
<6> Weed is a cash crop :)
<3> <+icmps> KoBushi: What would they do if they couldnt buy protection from the govt?
<2> Free: big corporate farmers are efficient and good for the nation ... a little competition from family farms is also good
<3> If theyd be larger, what should buying protection serve?
<1> icmps I didn't see the first part o that Q then; sorry, I was answering in the wrong context
<2> and family farms can quickly be increased to take up any slack as needed
<1> icmps if they COULDN'T buy protection from the government; then it would depend if there had ben restrictions or not.
<3> KoBushi: Oh. Then, what would oil cos be like if they couldnt buy protection ?
<3> smaller?
<2> regulations unequally favor big corporations over smaller competition
<4> HAHAHHAHAHA $40,000 for a 40MB harddrive! http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/40000-hard-drive
<1> icmps with or w/o restrictions?
<3> no restriction, and no protection
<0> OcDoc, I agree.
<2> regulations can drive out competition leading to loss of competition and bloating of big corporations
<10> Lupine agressive salesmanship?
<4> darth: naw.. 1985
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