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Comments:
<0> I grew up in a very moderate christian family with no pressure either way and I became an atheist at 9 or 10.
<1> Pickle: they'll use other pressures if they dont take the money wont they though?
<0> By my own decision based on logic.
<2> suna, yes, yes our culture determines who we are. but why are certain beliefs in our culture, who creates the culture
<3> emotion can be influenced on what beliefs you've had crammed down your thorat....which makes it indirectly a choice (though have fun predicting it), though maybe not YOUR choice:)
<0> I wasnt rebelling, I wanst conforming.
<3> the people in the culture
<3> what are you getting at?
<1> like blacklisting their state's bills in the house and senate
<4> 'losting federal funding tramples states rights' LOL, zippie, what rights, the rights to steal money from all the other states?
<3> the point I as trying to make
<2> suna, you think that christianity exists in our culture as some random thing. history isnt arbitrary, fashion isnt arbitrary, peoples beliefs arent arbitrary
<3> is you can't fall back on morons
<3> errr
<3> on morals
<5> im just glad my parents didnt indoctrinate me in any way
<3> or some concepts of "right and wrong"
<5> not that it woulda worked
<3> to try to prove an argument
<3> if you have to
<3> you can't prove your point
<3> and on top of it
<3> you're harmful for everybody else who tries to prove your point
<2> prove what point
<6> suna what do you do for aliving
<7> zippie: If by "other pressures" you mean unconstitutional regulation, then I agree there's a problem.
<0> I just couldnt believe a real god of love and mercy could send a Buddhist chinese neighbor to hell simply because she didnt believe in Jesus which is the bases of christianity though a lot of christians actually reject this fundamental premise. they have rationalized it away.
<1> Pickle: no like ganging up on these 'rogue states' that wont take the money in the House and Senate
<2> if youre indoctrinated and say certain things are your beliefs, it doesnt mean you truly believe them at a deeper level
<3> whatever point. Doesn't matter. The point that people should be able to say wahtever they want whenever they want, the point that people should be able to own guns, etc
<0> But the text of the bible says all non christians shall burn in hell for eternity no getting around it.
<5> plenty of getting around it
<1> filibustering their states bills, etc
<3> you need to be able to show it. Prove it. Use your head. Know what logic is. Present an argument
<8> one day the aliens will return in the mothership and show us all the way !
<8> ;p
<5> find me an evangelical protestant concept of hell in the bible
<5> you won't.
<3> falling back on "right" and "wrong" is a useless copout. It doesn't work.
<7> zippie: Well, that's what that amounts to. The bottom line for me is that the feds shouldn't be funding all this ****, and you've touched on the most important reason why: they can use money as a tool for interfering in state issues.
<0> Well Self Actualization, Self realization, A lot of psychological and spiritual terms such as enlighenment, nirvana, a breakthrough, is nothing more tthan reexamination of what you learned from your parents and your environment.
<1> Pickle: that's why it should be illegal for the gov to do
<1> Pickle: there's no choice, if the state asks for money, the gov shows them to the hoop
<7> zippie: It is, but no one bothers enforcing the Constitution anymore.
<9> the mercury girl is hawt
<7> zippie: The states shouldn't be asking for the money, though, either, and then not expecting the feds to try meddling in their affairs.
<0> I went to a psycholgist once for therapy he said I was lucky I have very extreme intellectual freedom, but with that comes kind of a curse to because the existensial questions later in life can haunt you which is what i would cal my second awakening where I was no longer haunted by primal and existensial fears.
<9> o_O
<0> Yes some people, Some parents, some cultures are extremely controlling, and the typical reaction is either conformity or rebellion, neither of which are based on free choice or enlightenment.
<9> a bad time for my hyperactive bum...I'll go back to watching this program on N00ton
<1> Pickle: but most of the states, probably a lot dont have the self-sufficient state economies that would preclude them from asking or taking offers of federal funding, and they cannot become self-sufficient because of the subserviance
<10> hmm so anyways im off to perkins to do some drawing and such
<10> talk to you all some other time..
<2> occ. of course you direct your emotions. i was talking with a psychologist who was lecturing on anger management, and she was telling everyone how thinking certain ways lets you control anger. so, i explained to her, when yuo think something to yourself, and it diffuses your anger, it does because you tell yourself you can stop being angry.
<9> ya'll&
<2> but you can tell yourself to stop being angry any time you want. when you're depressed, its because you want to be depressed. when you yell its because you want to yell. i never tell anyone , 'i didnt mean to say that', because when im angry i mean to say every single word
<0> I think it would be hard to be a fundamentalist chrisitan child, or a deeply cultural jewish child or a chinese child who learns he is responsibile for the fate of his family which is basically ancestral worship..
<9> *
<10> pub, up her in the north..we only say ya'll when making fun of you guys
<7> zippie: That sounds to me like the guy who whines about guys coming to break his legs after he takes out a loan from the local shark. Yes, the money's tempting, but taking it has strings attached.
<0> You are depressed because you want to be depressed ? I would agree sometimes.. Yes some times there is a reward for whining and sorrow and self pity although its a false reward, you can also induce depression by chemistry natural or externally administered, and get relief from the same.
<2> no
<0> Some people get depression and need electro shock therapy..
<10> and some people are so smart they give them selves a lobotomy..what
<1> Pickle: so then it ends up we have a nation of debtor states, slave states if you will, that cannot exist as states at all anymore
<0> One guy they put a small electric charge in his brain surgically.. He was a no cure for depression. After the surgery his depression was completely gone.
<10> what is your point?
<2> freetrade. what you feel, your emotions, is a result of yourself, how you think about things. when you cry its because you're upset. when you stop crying its because youre not upset anymore
<2> thats what i mean
<6> Fr33Trade I find it very difficult to control my emotions
<0> This is still an experimental surgery but it worked..
<2> im not even talking about it in terms of mental illness
<0> I dont think it will be the norm. Talk therapy and drugs will always be the norm.
<0> once you get through the pessimism and self pity which is self inflicted and you still are depressed, then you go the medical route and if you are lucky it works, for a lot of peopel it doesnt, about 25%..
<7> zippie: It always comes down to the same thing, for me: don't take the money.
<5> my grandpa had ECT twice
<5> and it was a lifesaver
<7> Take the money, and you lose your sovereignty. Actions have consequences.
<1> Pickle: and since all the states are on the federal payroll, it makes both the House and Senate not the heterogeneous system of freedom it was founded to be, but a sad almost worrisome bunch of federal money addicts who cant have stable economies without federal money
<0> Johan, I dont.. I grant it when I watch a sad movie where I let myself go intentionally to lose myself in the movie I can get laugther or tears. but its not unhappiness.
<11> redfish cries daily
<0> Refish, You know I am almost 50, I believed what you believed once , in fact not many years ago.. I believed many things I can tell you my experience in being more or less cured..
<2> when you stop crying, you stop yourself. what happens to lead you to stop crying is a way to rationalize it. but you can stop yourself anytime. you dont, because you dont want to. you want to cry.
<11> I wouldn't go that far.
<11> People want to cry?
<2> yes
<0> Noone can sit here and speak factually about anything you or I said other than the actual tested facts, these are beliefs.. people who believe psychiatry has nothing to do with the chemistry of the body or brain believe it because they choose to. People who believe its jesus believe its jesus. People who believe its a return to their torah roots believe it.. people who use medicine believe it.
<2> like people want to scream
<0> I believe there are components of all of these things which work for some.
<0> And I think some people have only one hope and thats phamacuetical..
<11> I'd pretty much never want to cry again.
<2> you can want to cry and not want to at the same time, emotions can contradict
<0> its no accident pharmacy is now the #1 treament of neurosis and psychosis.
<7> zippie: I'm not going to argue that the federal government isn't an anti-freedom institution. Of course it is. But the states have had plenty of opportunities to ***ert their sovereignty. The Tenth Amendment Sovereignty Resolution being the most obvious example. Instead, they took the money.
<12> laters
<0> My sister is bi-polar, My brother in law the nicest guy in the world with a phd in social psychiatric work, had had to go through a lot of electric shock treatment his depression is like a zombie.. it works.. though not forever.
<11> death and pain
<0> Emotions are physical there is no questiona about that, without a body there would be no emotions, with no corporal self.
<1> Pickle: the case would be different if more than a couple states bucked the trend, but when you're looking at 40 other states all taking the money, it does make them a sort of 'rogue state' that will have serious pressure applied if they dont cooperate
<2> freetrade. i know people who have had electroshock that regret it
<0> Because emotions are physical maniestations of pschic states.
<0> or events.
<0> psychic
<2> it doesnt matter if they have a physical state thats not the point
<0> I would never tell a patient, ever,. to stop doing what hes doing if its working.
<2> it doesnt make more sense to say that emotions are physical manifestations, than to say the physicality of the brain is a manifestation of emotions
<0> if hes getting accupuncture, or praying to Jesus or bowing towar mecca 5 times a day, if it works It would be silly to stop unless you can find some other help which you prefer.
<7> zippie: Shrug. If the majority of states won't "buck the trend", they have themselves to blame.
<2> i dont believe that the body controls the mind more than i believe the mind controls the body
<0> Thats why I think bigotry against religion is silly, even though at time it might help cause some depression. But there is depression from events in your life and there is depression which is clinical and you can be depressed.
<13> % change in discretionary spending during first five years of office: George W Bush 35%, Lindon B Johnson 25%, Bill Clinton -8%
<7> They've made a choice: subverted sovereignty in exchange for federal dollars that shouldn't have been collected in the first place.
<0> As many rich people as poor people commit suicide probably more.
<2> i dont think people should care about help so much
<0> Famous people and people no on will ever know..
<2> why do you care about getting out of a depression? i would bet a lot of people's depressions are intensified because they don't like it. and a lot of people get out of depression naturally when they accept it and forget about it
<1> Pickle: and as a result we have a weaker republic, the parts of the whole are not greater than the whole of the parts
<0> Redfish, well you need to believe what works for you.. You can ignore scientific theory which is very compelling. And deny a malfunction in the reuptate of neurotransmitters dont cause changes in mental state.
<0> or you might argue the environment causes the physiological deficiency
<2> im not even talking about that
<7> zippie: A republic is only as strong as its people. The American people have abandoned the principles of the Republic, for the most part. That's why America is ****ed.
<0> There are striking examples of cures for non psychiatric illness which uses the same manipulation of neurotranmitters.
<1> Pickle: it doesnt have to be, but whatever is on TV right we should eat it up
<0> Redfish, what is your central thesis, because when I have heard you before you have been a doubting Thomas if I may use a Catholic term ;)
<0> When it comes to mental health and psychic welfare, emotional health you seem to reject modern theories. or tell me if I am wrong.
<0> If I am wrong I dont want to thing I heard something I didnt.
<0> or havent.
<0> thing = think.
<2> modern theories are simplistic thats all , theyre like bumper sticker slogans
<0> Redfish. a lot of people is not all people though.
<0> No they are actually very complex.
<5> yep
<2> something can be complex and simplistic at the same time freetrade
<2> complex is the opposite of simple, not simplistic
<1> what's the einstein quote? "Anyone can make things complex, but it takes a genius to make them simple'
<0> And though they used drugs in the past which did the same thing, (The old anti depressants worked the same way only it was more of shotgun approach) new anti depressants are highly individualized and designed to work on specific neurotransmitters.
<5> whats that mean?
<5> CAPTAIN CRYPTIC
<9> lol
<7> zippie: Right. Americans are too busy fantasizing about becoming "CSI's" to worry about irrelevant issues like preserving state and individual sovereignty.
<6> Fr33Trade i m afraid of the side effects
<5> prozac's pretty good
<2> occ you can write a book with complex words and considerations and analyses and still be missing the point and saying something, that in the end, is trite. i can show you some postmodernist books that do that
<0> Its a very difficult formula and its a very complex process, they have tools now which aid them tremendously and show that people with depression light up certain parts of the brain, (Clinical) people with situational depression (A loss in the family, a spouse dies.) etc. There brains dont look at all the same.
<0> and the same is true for other mental diseases like schizophrenia and bi-polar
<6> Fr33Trade i m bi polar..but i manage to deal with it without meds
<5> i dont think theres any objective standard of "triteness"
<5> you're diagnosed bipolar?
<6> yes
<5> or "yah i think that applies to me!"
<0> And its also very heavily in families, why did my aunt who is shcizophrenic not take here medicine when we knew it made her better ? Few people doubt that Schizophrenics dont need medicinal therapy. And few doubt bi polar people dont.
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