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Comments:
<0> where anything not enumrated is left to the states
<1> Cornel west talked about it on real time.
<2> yeah except definition of powers which may say to teh contrary
<1> Admendment 11 right?
<1> or 9?
<2> but in that case, they had to write that "anything else is jurisdiciton on the states" which was just a definition of powers
<2> jursidiction of
<3> Except as required by law or with the approval of the customer, a telecommunications carrier that receives or obtains customer proprietary network information by virtue of its provision of a telecommunications service shall only use, disclose, or permit access to individually identifiable customer proprietary network information in its provision of (A) the telecommunications service from which such information is derived, or (B) services necessary to, or used in, t
<3> telecommunications service, including the publishing of directories.
<3> TITLE 47 > CHAPTER 5 > SUBCHAPTER II
<1> bmc check out 2 2 2 .
<2> so how does "proprietary network information" relate to this case ?
<3> (1) Customer proprietary network information
<3> The term customer proprietary network information means
<2> so then someone has to show that it's propietary
<3> (A) information that relates to the quantity, technical configuration, type, destination, location, and amount of use of a telecommunications service subscribed to by any customer of a telecommunications carrier, and that is made available to the carrier by the customer solely by virtue of the carrier-customer relationship; and
<3> (B) information contained in the bills pertaining to telephone exchange service or telephone toll service received by a customer of a carrier; except that such term does not include subscriber list information.
<4> The United Nations is releasing some startling figures on the plight of the world's under-nourished children. Under-nutrition contributes to the deaths of over five and a half million children every year <--Clearly the rich need more tax breaks to buy more yachts and Ferraris!
<3> (2) Aggregate information The term aggregate customer information means collective data that relates to a group or category of services or customers, from which individual customer identities and characteristics have been removed.
<2> hmm. That would not seem to apply to a list of calls made
<2> except maybe the last one
<5> us_male: do you watch "the factor?"
<2> not usually
<2> why
<5> i like bill's take on the phone taps.
<5> you can listen to his opinion on foxnews' website
<5> pretty smart
<3> wouldnt the phone number that is calling, and the phone number that number is calling be 'customer proprietary'
<3> also the length of the calls
<2> yeah I think the phone taps are separate from this new thing with Verizon
<4> NAFTA isnt working for mexico... NAFTA benefits the 13 billionaires that live there... it has not raised wages, standards of living, or opportunities... thats why mexicans laborers come to the US... immigrants will alwaze come to the US for their own countries dont offer: wages, staandard of living, and opportunity
<1> Yeah call lists are not phone taps.
<2> bmc: I'm sure each side will have lawyers arguing their way
<3> it cant be aggregate and customer proprietary, because the def of aggregate doesnt include customer proprietary info
<1> But wiretaps are falling under national security so we might not get to know.
<3> only "collective data"
<2> one side will say part (2) applies, the other side wil say it doesn't
<1> Qwest said they would not turn over customer information without a warrant.
<4> Congressional Budget Office data shows between 1973 and 2000 the average real income of the bottom 90 percent of American taxpayers fell by 7%. Meanwhile, the income of the top 1 percent rose by 343%!! The income of the top 0.01 percent rose 599%!!! (Those numbers exclude capital gains, so they're not an artifact of the stock-market bubble.)
<6> London, May 13 Irans Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) had provided the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq heavy weapons including anti-aircraft missiles, it emerged on Friday.
<2> verizon had offices and comm towers on the WOrld Trade center, I'm sure after 9/11 they said "sure whatever , if we can call it legal we'll do it"
<3> (1). A local exchange carrier may use, disclose, or permit access to aggregate customer information other than for purposes described in paragraph (1) only if it provides such aggregate information to other carriers or persons on reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms and conditions upon reasonable request therefor.
<3> so we all get access to that info
<3> ?
<3> i can request the aggregate phone records for every citizen in the US?
<2> telemarketers seem to have no problem finding people, even when you never bought from then
<2> them
<0> do you have reasonable terms?
<7> If you re rich, your name will be sold to telemarketing companies
<3> im working on a telecommunications security system
<0> and you can prove that you have reasonable terms then yeah it looks like you can get it
<3> prove?
<4> Today's ongoing tax cuts for the rich create a budget shortfall where the money has to be borrowed, and the borrowing is loaded onto the national debt of people working for wages in a nation where wages are flat and jobs arent keeping with population growth.
<3> putting a burden of proof on me and not the NSA would be discriminatory
<0> thats what contions upon reasonable request therefor means
<0> uh im sure the NSA gave reasonable terms
<4> Before these conservatives finish favoring the rich, there will be no capital gains tax, no dividends tax, no estate tax. Revenues for public services will be raised exclusively from taxes on working wage earners. You pay, they play. The super rich, protected by Bush tax policy, avoid their fair share of taxes, refuse to pay a higher minimum wage, refuse to fight in their nation's wars, and laugh all the way to their yachts
<3> but were the forced to provide proof theyre using the info as they state?
<0> they didnt just say gimme... it would be more like gimmie because of antional security
<3> that would be a national security risk, so obviously they didnt
<4> Congress has increased its own pay by $30,000 yet freezes the minimum wage at $5.15 per hour. Is this what we really want? Do we really want to see lower and middle cl*** wages stagnate while we give unprecedented favors to corporate interests and the rich?
<0> so you argue against the SAME law you used to prove its illegal?
<3> no, im saying it wouldnt be non-discriminatory
<0> non-discrimitory isnt the ONLY restriction there
<7> the middle cl*** can go to hell
<3> but it is one
<0> you have to provide an application with reasonable cause
<3> reasonable -AND- nondiscriminatory
<0> yes you have to meet ALL of those requirements
<0> and provide application
<3> im working on a telecommunications security system, is a reasonable reason to request such info
<0> read what you posted
<0> ok file the form
<4> Hunger in the USA up, wages down - http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0228-06.htm
<0> or the request.. showing that your request is reasonable
<7> Tehran, Iran, May 13 A senior Iranian cleric described a letter sent by hard-line Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to United States President George W. Bush as a divine inspiration
<0> and if it turns out you arent.. then prepare for the fbi to be knocking
<4> Public policies have created a conveyor belt moving money from the pockets of the middle-cl*** and the working poor into the wallets of the super-rich. Of course under the current administration the growth of inequality has accelerated.
<0> you are making an ***umption that the NSA just said give it to me
<0> im sure that they said give it to me for national security reasons.. two completely different things
<3> no, they said gimme or no gov't contracts for you
<4> Reducing inequality is not about cl*** warfare -- it is about keeping people alive and healthy. Thirty years of scientific research have shown that the most powerful predictor of human disease is economic inequality. - http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0218-32.htm
<8> grape[, yeah, we can read the **** from the URL you posted, you don't need to paste it here
<0> and looks like (from YOUR law postings) its legal
<0> bmc you have proof of that?
<0> or are you just ***uming the government is always bad?
<3> i didnt hear it personally, but thats what those that have delt with them have stated
<3> or what theyre reporting anyways
<0> so if you have proof of it.. take it to the press
<7> Reuters: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said on Sunday that if the United States attacked Iran in its dispute with Tehran over nuclear technology, the price of oil could soar to triple figures.
<0> i highly doubt anyone at the nsa would say that... they would comply with the law thats all they need to do
<7> I certainly HOPE so
<3> this still doesnt address customer proprietary info vs. aggregate
<3> im more interested in the legality of the phone companies actions, than the governments
<3> what are personal charactersists in reference to telecommunications service?
<3> characteristics*
<4> Raising the minimum wage does not cost jobs, it grows them. People on the bottom spend all they earn (they are spending out of need). More for them to spend means more commerse and in increasing ecconomy: more jobs and more wealth for everyone.
<0> it looks like, from the same section, the phone companies actions were also legal
<3> bun-bun where?
<0> they may not be popular (which is why qwest withheld)
<9> My daughter used a sponge with a scratcher on the side to do my car and she used the scratcher part for bugs and stuff like that but it leaves a barely perceptible yet perceptible scratch on my car, I paid extra on my car to have the finish protected and guranteed for some years I forget the number. Should I ask them to fix it ? Or is there some other way to fix it ? anyone know ?
<0> [02:10PM] <3> (1). A local exchange carrier may use, disclose, or permit
<0> + access to aggregate customer information other than for purposes
<0> + described in paragraph (1) only if it provides such aggregate
<0> + information to other carriers or persons on reasonable and
<0> + nondiscriminatory terms and conditions upon reasonable request
<0> + therefor.
<3> The term aggregate customer information means collective data that relates to a group or category of services or customers, from which individual customer identities and characteristics have been removed.
<9> Its not horrible, but its not good.
<3> identities and characteristics
<3> what are characteristics?
<3> the numbers you call?
<3> the length of the calls?
<0> yes
<3> then its not aggregate
<4> Middle cl*** people usually pay a higher tax rate on their income than wealthy people who get most of their income from capital gains.
<3> and cannot be disclosed
<8> Fr33Trade, rubbing compound will likely fix that
<9> BMC, Yes its completely legal and even private groups can get this information.
<0> it is if you consider aggragate to be all the data for the month
<10> grape[, you are devoiced (Requested by TheTailor )
<9> TT, do you know what the coating they put on is ?
<0> you can redefine terms all you want.. this is a legal action
<3> bun-bun im not defining them, the law is
<8> Fr33Trade, no, but when I did that to my car rubbing compound fixed it :-)
<3> they can share -aggregate- information
<0> if you think it should be illegal then contact your representatives
<9> The collection of phone data ? Extremely legal, private peopel can collect it.
<9> No personal information is disclosed.
<3> aggregate information is customer proprietary info minus personal identities and characteristics
<9> None was disclosed.
<0> there you go
<3> from which individual customer identities and characteristics have been removed.
<0> numbers you call are NOT personal identities
<0> or characteristics
<3> bun-bun there you go? you justsaid characteristics included phone numbers and length of calls
<9> Everything Cheney asked for the NSA lawyers and other lawyers, agreed to except one thing and they disagreed and he didnt pursue it, so he followed legal cousel and the NSA counsel on everything he did
<3> and this is the type of info theyre sharing
<9> and everything Bush did.
<0> hello how is the number you call or the length of the call a PERSONAL characteristic?
<3> you just said it was when i asked
<0> personal characteristics are age, race, names etc
<11> what would be the purpose of gathering collective information if none of it will be useful in getting a court order or something else?
<9> And they checked with about a half dozen other lawyers. They covered their *** there is no way they could be charged with any crime, even if a program was determined to be illegal which is has not been.
<8> bmc, well it's not.
<3> bun-bun not personal, customer
<9> To commit a crime you would have to have knowingly or willfully done so, and when the expert lawyers in that area say its legal its not knowing or willful.
<0> bmc keep splitting hairs its still legal at the end of it
<9> Its not a crime.
<11> ignorance of the law is not a strong defense.
<0> due diligence IS
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