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Comments:
<0> There are american cities, which are more dangerous than a lot of Iraqi cities.
<1> 1 more
<1> http://www.epic-usa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=1836
<1> not just al-Qaeda, specifically, but Sunni insurgents/militants generally
<0> No I read there were about 10 more, I wish to hell I still had the artical
<2> heh, the irony here, if the Americans left like the Sunnis want.. it would get worse for them. Shiia are already the majority and would be unleashed.. let alone with Iranian backing
<0> it also did a comparison to the USA
<1> hm.. I'd choose the US any day
<3> It's not surprising really. When a strong, authoritarian centralized government that managed to hold internal conflict to a minimum disappears, those internal conflicts resurface. Same thing occured in the Balkans after the breakup of the USSR.
<2> The Shiia would mop up the Sunnis
<0> I wish I still had that source, I should of bookmarked it.
<2> agreed
<0> As an american I would sure choose america too
<1> I meant in terms of safety, also
<1> not just because it's me country
<0> because I know which neighborhoods I could get killed in and which hood where my odds of being killed are less than in europe
<2> well said Katey
<2> although Zarqawi did a good bit to exacerbate the situation
<1> Katey: maybe you mean after the breakup of Yugoslavia.. ?
<2> blowing up the golden dome shiite mosque didnt help
<3> Timur-, yeah
<1> but yeah, the two occurred basically at the same time
<0> Katey, This is not yugosalvia, before Saddam they had ethnic diversity
<4> HAPPY BIRTHDAY
<1> and they still do
<4> MEEEEE!!!!
<5> Glock21, woot.
<5> How old are you? 666?
<5> :P
<2> happy birthday buddy
<1> in fact, that ethnic diversity is one cause of the fighting, from Baghdad to Mosul to Kirkuk
<3> Freemrkts, whether the conflicts are secarian or ethnic, it's basically the same dynamic at work. Internal fractiousness
<0> and though sunnis who have lost advantage and wealth do to the demise of Saddams command are very sectarian there are places that are very mixed sectarian and there was not that much change until the suicide bombers sent in to destroy mosques and others by al queda
<3> I think that these types of deep, internal divisions with such a long history are difficult for Americans to understand or grapple with.
<0> Less that 6 months ago I was looking at coffee markets in baghdad very mixed where people were relaxing or playing chess or whatever their card games are.
<3> Feeling a stronger sense of connection to your ethnic group, sect, or tribe than you do to your nation state
<0> Most of this is a result of Zarqawi in the last year more so in the last 6 months.
<6> Katey, except that they aren't all that "deep"
<3> yes. they are
<1> Katey: exactly so
<0> Katey but you mistake iraq by not understanding that historically its been a mixed area, Yugoslavia wasnt.
<3> Conflict between Sunni and Shia is over a thousand years and running
<1> yes, Yugoslavia actually wa.
<1> s
<6> No, that's just hype. It's the same feeling we have here in most cases.
<0> The ethnic connections in Yugoslavia were much stronger than Baghdad.
<6> Katey, yeah, and thye intermarry
<1> there were large %s of Serbs and Croats as well as Muslims in Sarajevo
<1> still are, albeit a bit less so
<0> Katey yes but Baghdad is different than most arab nations
<0> it had much less so
<3> Timur-, right, sarajevo in particular
<0> Katey yes but Baghdad is different than most arab nations
<1> no, the ethnic connections are actually stronger in Iraq.
<1> and of longer provenance
<6> But we aren't talking about the Serbs and Croats are we...
<3> TheTailor, we're talking about internal ethnic and sectarian divisions
<0> Katey, you need to understand Iraq not just simple m*** generalizations about arabs in the whole region
<1> Tailor: eh, I didn't bring it up, but have no problem addressing it
<6> Katey, IN IRAQ
<1> I think one needs to understand both Iraq specifically and Arabs generally to 'get' Iraq.
<0> Yes there has been sectarian fighting for 1000 years or actually more like closer to 1200-1300
<1> right
<1> that's a long history.
<3> These are deep and lasting sectarian divisions
<3> rond needs an invite
<6> Bah
<1> Iraq was the front line for the Sunni world for centuries against the Shiite Persians
<1> esp after 1501, when Shah Ismail I made Shi'ism the state religion of Iran
<1> (or rather, Persia)
<0> But Iraq has a more interesting history especially Baghdad where their leader was a atheist who claimed to be sunni and his diplomat to the world was a chrisitan, and well. It was a secular society under saddam.
<3> And, to use Yugoslavia as an example again, prior to the outbreak of wars there in the 90s, there were lots of mixed marriages and neighborhoods as well
<6> What happened to the leftist scream that Iraq was secular?
<3> but the old divisions resurfaced after the breakdown of the centralized government in Yugoslavia
<0> just as syria is sectarian and it does have some advantages over some more isolated arab states. but they also in the case of Syria have terrorism problems.
<0> Iraq and syria had christian populations and even jewish populations until recently historically
<3> Well, Hussien's regime was secular. That's part of my original point.
<1> eh.. it became a lot less secular after Gulf I
<3> It was a secular, authoritarian centralized regime
<1> and to the extent it was secular, it was Arab nationalist
<0> Katey you are not speaking from reality you are speaking from conventional wisdowm extrapolating it and applying it to Iraq.
<3> Timur-, yeah, well, that was more Hussein currying favor with Jihadi sentiments, dont' you think?
<1> and with a great nod to Muslim predominance; hence the Saddam mosque, with a Koran written in his blood
<0> Katey Yugoslavia had much deeper ethnic territorial conflicts
<1> Katey: right, hence the idea of Iraq as 'secular' suddenly becomes a bit less stringent
<1> Free: why do you think so
<0> Yes gulf 1 changed the charater of Iraq a lot.
<0> it was no longer safe for jews.
<0> Not that it was every completely safe.
<1> it wasn't safe for Jews since 1940
<3> Freemrkts, whether or not you consider those conflicts to be deeper isn't really the point. It's an example of a society that, under authoritarian central leadership, supressed ethnic tensions effectively.
<0> But it became worse after Gulf war 1
<1> and it wasn't safe for anyone after Saddam, really.
<0> Timur and yet their were jewish communities there before Gulf war 1
<1> i.e. since 1969
<3> Timur-, well, my point being he wasn't running a theocracy, vis a vis Iran
<1> Free: yeah, like 500 people.
<1> Katey: no, not a theocracy, but nor a really secular state, either
<0> There are specific groups which have more strategic reasons than ethnic reasons to cause trouble in Iraq.
<1> and there are a lot of ethnic groups who have real grievances against other ethnic groups in Iraq.
<0> Whats interesting is the intelligence gathered from zarqawi proves Bush was right.
<0> Timur there are in america too.
<3> the internal tensions are ethnic, political, and sectarian. Basically what you might get when the central government is too weak to hold that stuff down. What will need to happen now is for the new government to be able to ***ert its authority effectively
<3> And we'll wait and see if they can. Hopefully, they can.
<3> ack. I need to grab a shower and get going
<3> bbl
<7> boy
<7> it sure is good bush signed that bill increasing fines for profanity on tv....
<7> even though the bill doesnt specify what is profane
<7> thatnkyou PTC!
<0> Iraq
<0> Greater Than the Whole
<0> Diversity in a desert land
<0> On a mountain in northwestern Iraq stands a modest temple with a cone-shaped steeple. It is a shrine of the Yazidis, a sect that practices angel worship.
<0> Yazidis are one example of Iraq's diversity of peoples and faiths. When Iraq was created out of parts of the defeated Ottoman Empire after World War Ifirst as a British protectorate, but independent since 1932it brought together ***yrian Christians still worshiping in Aramaic, the language of Jesus; Turkomans whose ancestors arrived in the 13th century with the conqueror Tamerlane; and a community of Jews in Baghdad. Then and
<0> Iraq has a history of diversity going back to the time our ancestors probably might have lived there.
<8> uh..
<0> They never had the roots that the Yugoslavs did.
<8> no?
<0> They never had the ties to the land the yugoslavs did.
<8> I think the Arab conquest of the 7th century qualifies as a pretty long term tie to land
<8> longer, in fact, than that of the Yugoslavs.
<0> Baghdad has been very diverse historically.
<1> right, but not since 1958 as much
<0> It was a center of commerce and had lots of different people including greeks.
<1> yeah, then the Mongols came in 1258 and it had to be rebuilt, but it never recovered fully
<0> yes but the point is if you were to pick a nation where a multi cultural government as possible, you would probably have picked Iraq or Syria.
<1> no, I wouldn't have
<0> If you were to pick one to go to war with.
<0> What would you have picked ?
<1> oh, to go to war with..
<1> wait, you're asking 'if I had to pick a multi-ethnic state with which to go to war, which would it be'?
<0> Saudi Arabia is almost exlusively sunni, Iran almost exclusively shia.
<1> right.. and?
<1> and Pakistan is mostly Sunni, and Azerbaijan also
<9> man, it's a scorcher out today
<0> Ans Iraq or syria would be the ideal places to set up a government of diverse ethnicities.
<0> Compared to the others.
<10> I played golf in 97f yesterday
<10> was supposed to be above 100 all week but its not made it
<9> where at?
<1> oh, so.. a place that has diverse ethnic-religious communities would be ideal to have a government made up of diverse ethnic-religious communities?
<10> Fort Worth Texas
<1> um.. yeah.. that seems pretty obvious.
<0> Sure Baghdad has been sacked 100 times through history but the same with even the UK (Well not 100s)
<1> sorry, not sure where you're going with this
<9> it's only ~93f here, but humidity is in the 70% still from Alberto
<0> Timur its not obvious to people who dont understand the individual characters of these nations.
<0> These countries are all different.
<1> right, so.. you're attempting to educate?
<1> they have some differences, and some similarities
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