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Comments:
<0> US-Male: fine; lets just go for minarchy than.
<1> works for me
<2> Libertine : That's all well and good, maintaining a small government, but no one knows how to do it.
<1> the problem is applying it
<1> society has become addicted to bg government
<1> look at hurricane Katrina
<1> "oh it's Bush's fault!"
<1> it's a ****ing hurricane
<0> US-Male: people just have no balls.
<1> well yeah
<0> US-Male: too many nanny-statists want gub'ment to wipe their ***holes.
<3> bush should just admit he can control hurricanes
<3> get it over with
<3> rove too
<1> sadly yes
<1> tortus lol
<2> Libertine : Balls or not, if you think you know how to reduce power hunger in people, start small. Convince gangs or mafias to stop lording it over people. If you can stop violence on a small-scale, I'll believe that you have an idea that might work on a large-scale.
<2> Libertine : This stuff about people not being vigilant enough is nice talk, but what working methods do you have ?
<0> Olathe: our federal government was once inferior in power and size to the States; I just advocate a return to that time.
<4> Libertine, unrealistic.
<2> Libertine : We already did that a few hundred years ago. Vigilance isn't the key, since it didn't work.
<5> we had far less people too
<2> Libertine : You want to control something small, prove your method in practice on small power groups.
<0> JanetB: the States were the great power; each was sovereign; the number of people is irrelevant when deciding the scope of power of a central government.
<2> Libertine : If your methods don't work on small power groups, don't expect us to accept it for small governments.
<0> we're talking about what is the control here; the central government or the states?
<0> why do we need the central government to be the great power?
<5> when the states keep going to the federal goverment wanting hand outs, that is not possible
<0> we all send our money to washington just to have it redistributed across all 50 states..
<0> screw that.
<0> you like this?
<4> Libertine, another lack of common sense --> number of people is irrelevant
<5> I wish all we sent was to WA.. but thats not so we have state taxes
<0> TheTailor: bullsh*t.
<1> the only way to control government size is to control taxation
<2> US-Male : Is that controllable ?
<0> TheTailor: the size of a nation composed of States does not mean anything; each State can run itself better then a single central government.
<1> whatever money is taken, will get spent
<1> Olathe: sometimes
<0> than;typo
<4> Libertine, says you, but lets face facts here, you are completely unrealistic in your thinking.
<6> usmale government should be so large that it is infinite in size
<2> US^Male : Sometimes doesn't cut it, really.
<0> TheTailor: why? we don't need a federal government as it exists now.
<2> Libertine : If you want to be persuasive, show evidence of success, not unproven nagging.
<1> Olathe: well you'l lhave to live with it, unless you can change it
<2> Libertine : You have ideas to limit the size of power, show they work.
<4> Libertine, you won't ever get rid of it, that's the unrealistic part.
<2> US-Male : Unfortunately, I don't know how.
<1> I don't either. Well I have some ideas, but implementing them is not how I want to live my life
<5> aww wjust shoot all the politicians and start over :D
<0> Olathe: we created a small federal system; i suggest we go back to it.
<0> Olathe: they worked fine for a long time.
<2> Libertine : If it didn't work the first time, why would that change ?
<4> JanetB, now there's a thought...
<0> TheTailor: fine - either work to change it or expect a revolution over it.. again
<4> Libertine, now you are dreaming.
<0> TheTailor: heh, you think the south is over it? ;)
<6> i dont think the size of government is necessarily the issue but how well its managed , some people try to say big government is bad, others say small government is bad, its whether the specific programs are good or not and whether or not there is waste
<0> TheTailor: CSA flags dont fly in the south without reason
<1> I miss General Sherman
<6> but i mean how else do you measure the 'size' of government
<0> size is easy to control; you do it by removing the money
<6> by how much is inefficient and wasted not by actual participation or money
<1> redfish: with a ruler
<5> oh please people can not stomach a small war like Iraq, much less a revolution
<4> Libertine, seek a TEAM of professional help.
<2> It's easy to eliminate government, just eliminate government.
<6> thetailor a superteam
<2> Simple !
<6> of all stars
<0> JanetB: difference is self interest; we see no benefit in us being taxed to death over Iraq; fighting for our own freedom is different.
<1> wave a magic wand
<2> Exactly.
<1> redfish, call the Superfriends
<6> i think all of the superfriends are dead
<6> how long has batman been alive
<2> All you have to do is remove the money without a working method of doing that kind of thing, reduce the increase of power without a working method of doing that, and soon, things will be fine.
<0> the very idea that so many of you feel powerless to control the federal government ought to be a wake up call.
<5> if you do not think that fighting in Iraq is not protecting our freedom, then you are stranger than I thought
<5> oh well
<2> Libertine : We're waiting for an example of a successful method.
<0> JanetB: Iraq is great for Iraqi freedom; not ours.
<1> Libertine: wake up !!!!
<2> Libertine : It's a small thing we're asking for, really.
<0> Olathe: huh?
<0> Olathe: i told you already 1790-1860
<2> Libertine : That's nice and all, but it wasn't really successful.
<0> Olathe: the expansion of federal power came because of a direct challenge to that power.
<2> Libertine : It came before that.
<0> Olathe: it grew to protect itself; not because we needed it.
<2> Libertine : Exactly !
<2> Libertine : And what do you propose to stop that ?
<0> Olathe: elect libertarians.
<4> Nothing but lipservice.
<4> lol
<4> What libertarians?
<7> "I never thought that when Anne Coulter came out that I'd have to move to the right." --George Carlin on Leno
<7> ahah
<0> failing that; we can always try leaving the Union again
<2> Libertine : Has that worked, even on a small scale ?
<7> she's like grossly skinny
<5> no way would I elect a libertarian, they want anarchy
<0> Olathe: hard to do with jerrymandering.
<7> like a blonde crypt keeper
<2> Libertine : Do you expect power-loving people to play fair ?
<0> too many things in place to protect incumbancy and the two party system
<2> Libertine : All of your ideas seem to require them to play fair.
<2> Libertine : Am I wrong ?
<0> Olathe: not really; i expect people to get smart.
<8> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrUQboKx_KE
<0> if they don't do it; they will continue to get bad government.
<2> Libertine : You expect what doesn't and hasn't happened ?
<2> Libertine : When have people gotten smart in human history ?
<0> as government gets worse; eventually people will rebel.
<0> it just takes time.
<4> Libertine, how odd, that's what the vast majority of people expect of libertarians.
<7> b/c conservatives never parade victims during speeches to try to make a political point
<2> Libertine : Yes, but that doesn't lead to freedom.
<2> Libertine : Revolutions happen all over the world from dissatisfaction, right ?
<2> Libertine : How many bring freedom ?
<0> Olathe: ah.. you're right revolutions seldom work; so lets not bother.. we'll just endure oppression forever.. good plan!
<0> Olathe: you sir are a genius!
<2> Libertine : I'm not saying that. I'm saying show proof that your ideas work.
<2> Libertine : Can you do so ?
<2> Libertine : I'd love to see a proven idea.
<0> Olathe: they would have worked out fine except for a certain tyrant in the 1860s
<5> gosh, I do not feel opperesed., anyone else?
<2> Libertine : If you have one, let all of us hear !
<0> JanetB: you couldnt handle real freedom.
<1> I miss Lincoln
<0> people today want nanny-gov to wipe their *** and protect their kids.
<2> Libertine : If one small man can upset your plan, what good is it ?
<5> Libertine... I have real freedom, but thanks anyway :D
<1> Lincoln and Sherman, great guys
<0> freedom requires sacrifice; and american's today are too spoiled and soft to accept it.
<2> Libertine : If we try the plan you propose again, one small man will be able to topple it again ?
<9> Actually libertarians dont want anarchy but to have libertarian government you would need a vastly more enlightened population including the population which calls itself Libertarian.
<2> Libertine : You are being unreasonable.
<0> JanetB: right; you are not free to do to your body as you please.
<5> Libertine.. sure I am
<0> Olathe: no, im being uncompromising.
<0> JanetB: go smoke pot.
<2> Libertine : You're expecting people to put energy into your ideas, to stop being lazy, to be more vigilant...in plans that don't work and can be foiled by people like Lincoln.
<9> Libertarianism simply means reduced to its simplist terms. The least government possible to keep order in society and protect the rights of individuals.
<1> you can smoke pot easily without getting caught
<9> Its the same as minarchy but not anarchy
<0> US-Male: that isn't freedom; thats not getting caught.
<9> Libertarians support national defense.
<2> Libertine : Yes, but there's uncompromising and effective ideas, and there's uncompromising methods of failure.
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