| |
| |
| |
|
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48
Comments:
<0> Kali: right, or, in other words.. 'duh?'
<1> ohhh i see... DJ equip
<2> Libertine -- since when do NON-AMericans have a right to a trial??
<3> Timur-: You cant.
<0> icmp: because trials aren't the only measure of truth or fact.
<3> Um.
<3> It's the only measure of guilt.
<3> And that's the only reason for restriction of freedom
<4> All persons on US soil have the right to a trial. The Constitution doesn't just apply to citizens.
<5> Kaliuna: we don't put non-americans on trial?
<6> Libertine: when they are captured, they are dead men walking. They have already forfeit their lives when they chose to become illegal combatants. Their jailers can lock them up forever if they so desire.
<0> only in an established legal system.
<4> The key, however, is "US soil".
<5> Kaliuna: odd; I could have sworn we put non-americans on trial; ALL THE TIME.
<4> Gitmo is not.
<2> Libertine -- it will be a military one...
<7> Kaliuna Wouldn't you be a bit pissed off at a country who held you for 3+ years without charge, without access to your family or a lawyer, and then want some sort of revenge when you got out?
<3> Timur-: The bill of rights isn't exclusive to Americans
<4> Afghanistan is certainly not.
<0> so, historically, Stalin didn't kill anyone, he should be ***umed innocent, since he never had a trial?
<3> Timur-: They are inalienable for any human
<0> actually, it is.
<8> ttUSB Turntable with USB Audio Interface
<8> Featuring Plug and Play USB compatibility with both PC and Macintosh computers, the TTUSB turntable makes digitizing ones vinyl record collection a breeze
<0> but regardless, trials aren't the only basis of ascertaining fact.
<3> Timur-: Sure.
<8> oh my gawd I am having an organism
<2> Fed-Up -- I'd still be alive -- not beheaded or killed like they do with people...
<0> icmp: sure what, sure, Stalin wasn't guilty since he was never tried?
<8> a usb turntable. That is nice.
<5> technically anyone we captured in afghanistan ought to get POW status.
<3> Timur-: Yeah.
<4> Timur: All persons in a court of law should be ***umed innocent. The courts of public opinion and historical record are different matters.
<2> TWO -- oh I like that !!
<0> nothing ever happened unless there was a trial? :)
<2> hi DS
<0> icmp: well, you're pretty much out in left field on that one, I'm afraid.
<9> hi, Kal
<7> Kaliuna "They" who? Most Gitmo prisoners are from Afghanistan. The beheadings were in Iraq.
<6> Libertine: uhm.. no? this is a crazy ***ertion. Those who were captured in afghanistan who did not meet the requirements for being lawful combatants, are not PoWs
<1> there were Witch trials, so Witches exist?
<3> Timur-: I'm used to that:)
<0> Genghis Khan didn't exist, and didn't level towns, because there was no trial which established it? :)
<0> nothing happened ever without a trial!
<2> FedUp then we are more humane aren't we? and we are still at war in Afghanistan
<5> e-Hernick: you've never read Article IV of the geneva convention; have you?
<0> you don't exist unless a trial establishes you do
<10> Twobar does usb support 33
<6> Timur-: as a corollary to that, nothing that isn't illegal is immoral.
<9> Libertine, I have. Hernick is right, you're wrong.
<6> Libertine: as a matter of fact, I have.
<10> 33 rpm, is usb fast enough Twobar how about 45 or 77
<10> :)
<9> They most certainly do not qualify for treatment as POWs.
<4> Someone, I'm not sure who, is confusing the legal presumption of innocence with logical certainty of guilt.
<7> Kaliuna We're only as humane as we act. And Gitmo compromises that, at the very least. You can't argue that we have a right to be inhumane because we're so humane.
<9> They could actually have been summarily executed.
<6> Libertine: would you care to cite the specific p***age that you believe grants those unlawful combatants PoW status?
<0> e-Hernick: terribly inane and indefensible position.
<5> Articlel IV Section A - Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
<5> 1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
<6> DStewart: exactly
<5> 2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:
<9> FedUp, no, it doesn't compromise it in the least. WE're quite humane.
<5> (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
<5> (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
<5> (c) That of carrying arms openly;
<5> (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
<2> FedUp -- they were caught in the act of shooting and attempting to kill our soldiers -- they are now in prison... too bad we just didn't kill them on sight ehh?
<5> ... you know i really to paste the entire thing; but it would get me kicked; so go finish reading it yourselves.
<9> They do not: Have a command structure, nor responsible commanders.
<7> DStewart I'd say we're humane because we have laws about due process, fair trials, etc.
<6> Libertine: did you read that?
<5> Militias :)
<9> They do not fight under a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; iin fact, they fight within civilian populaces and from civilian locations.
<4> There is no legal, moral, or constitutional right to have people suspend their common sense and judge you guilty of something you are obviously guilty of. That only applies to a court trial.
<6> Libertine: cause it's pretty clear that non-uniformed unlawful combatants who do not openly claim to be part of a structured military organisation do not qualify as PoWs
<7> Kaliuna Some were, some were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and were swept up, or sold for bounty based on information we never corroborated. That's why these people need TRIALS!
<9> They do not carry arms openly; instead they use subterfuge.
<3> FedUp: And I wouldnt call holding people for years without a trial (basically presuming guilt) is exactly humane, either
<5> DStewart: they carried guns openly.
<9> They do not conduct their operations in accordance with laws and customs of wawr.
<4> Er, judge you innocent.
<6> Libertine: They have to fulfill ALL CONDITIONS, not 1/4 of them
<9> No, they did not carry guns openly.
<2> FedUp-- oh sure they were -- face it -- they are there and they can stay there
<5> e-Hernick: the taliban fighters did have ways to be recognized.
<6> Libertine: maybe in some cases the met one or two conditions, but very rarely all of them
<7> icmp Exactly, but all defenses of Gitmo detentions are based on the ***umption that we're the humane ones. Incredible!
<9> Using civilian shields, and civilian facilities as bases of operation, is not conducting operations in accord with laws and customs of war.
<4> icmp: There is no such thing as a trial for shooting at a soldier in a battlefield situation, a legal fact that was established during the indian wars when indians were freed by courts for just that reason.
<9> Feigning surrender in order to ambush is not conducting operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
<7> Kaliuna I agree with someone earlier: you basically believe everything the government tells you, so OK. Believe that.
<4> You CANNOT try the prisoners in Gitmo. You can only let them go.
<3> Pickle: ***uming our soldiers were the ones who had a legitimate reason for being there, fine
<8> DStewart, check this out...a USB turntable.... you can interface all of your 60's vinyl records with today's technology, might even be able to put it all on the ipod...... http://numark.com/index.html?http://numark.com/products/product_view.php?v=overview&n=168
<2> FedUp -- I didn't say that -- someone else did
<6> Pickle: you can give them a military trial
<3> But everybody has a 'right' to a trial - not just americans
<9> They did not fight in uniforms nor in any way to mark themselves as separate from the civilian populations---among whom they moved and hid, and whom they used as shields, and as weapons.
<7> Kaliuna And they were right.
<0> that's a totally separate issue.
<6> I believe that gitmo prisoners should be released at the discretion of the military, under rules set by the military.
<8> DS, it's Mac compatible
<3> at least to know their crime and punishment (which I disagree with BUT that is for another day)
<4> icmp: ***uming nothing. If the prisoners were captured in a battle against the United States government, they can't be tried.
<9> Libertine, you're 100% full of **** on this, and you ****ing know it.
<6> Libertine: I concur with DStewart, you are 100% full of ****.
<5> DStewart: i like this one; 4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity
<10> put your 45s on your ipod
<6> Libertine: they do not meet this condition either
<10> hot dam
<10> Twobar did they get a vinly player for the car
<4> e-Hernick: Well, yes, the military has that option, but doesn't have to do that.
<5> DStewart: you telling me we should believe the military for every person held that they were not covered by A4a4 ?
<3> Pickle: That presumes guilt when there is no real evidence for it... that's the purpose for a trial and saying there is no right or that they cant be tried is a slippery slope
<8> gpoo I dont know
<9> There isn't even ONE standard that they met, and they did not even TRY to meet Geneva standards.
<10> dsssssssssswwweeeeeerrrrrrrrrrttttt
<10> it slooooooooooowwwwwwww
<0> ok, time for bed.. later
<9> Libertine, I have no trouble with that at all.
<3> I'm not debating the customs for war I'm debating civil rights
<10> DStewart are you paying atteion
<4> icmp: No, it doesn't presume anything. There is no legal presumption of guilt or innocence in a military battle. Those are civil terms.
<2> icmp - they don't qualify for that even
<5> ultimately; you have to take the word of the US Military; and by just accepting their interpretation of events you allow them to hold people in prison as long as they want.
<5> it is a dangerious thing yu do.
<9> You're trying to tell me that we need to give them civilian trials in order to determine that they were not civilians?
<5> you/typo
<3> Pickle: Holding somebody against their will in a jail is a presumption of guilt.
<9> Sorry, but there is a separation of power, you moron.
<4> icmp: There is no crime to be presumed guilty or innocent of.
<3> Especially when there is no plan to try them for any rime
<3> crime
<6> Pickle: I believe that they have the option, and that they should exercise it at their discretion. The goal of the military should be to release those prisoners that they judge do not pose a threat. It is certain that some gitmo prisoners have been imprisoned improperly. War is a mess.
<3> Then why are they detained>
<11> "civil rights" are something our constitution gives residents of the US
<10> Twobar do you got any old vinly
<3> US: No.
<7> I say, forget the detainees rights. What about our core principles of democracy: the ones we're presumably spreading throughout the Mideast. How can we preach them with a straight face when we're using legal evasions to avoid upholding them ourselves?
<11> not combatants oin other places
<3> US: All people have the same civil rights
<4> icmp: Guilt of what?
<11> icmp: yes.
<11> icmp: wrong
<5> DStewart: eh, after whats been uncovered in the last few years? the m***acre in iraq with the soliders, etc .. yes i do.
<8> gpoo, I have a ton of vinyl records
<4> icmp: What crime are the prisoners at Gitmo being presumed guilty of?
<11> icmp: the US cannot export its law
Return to
#politics
or
Go to some related
logs:
toothpastefordinner + religion
#red
borsalan
pelo44
PP01S+drivers
#beginner
#computers
#winvista
#freebsd
Messiahnic Expectation
|
|