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Comments:
<0> Everybody breaks laws. its' been said that a government has exceeded its boundaries when you break a law every time you turn around and dont even realize it
<1> so, they still bear the brunt of supporting them.
<2> Timur: Only the people who supported those militias, not the Palestinians as a nation.
<3> So Palestinians are all collectively guilty ?
<3> Do people really believe that ?
<2> Or pseudo-nation, or whatever you want to call it.
<4> i break the law, and i accept the possibility of facing consequences for doing so
<3> I find this amazing.
<5> if you wish to obide by the law then you have to accept the democraticaly elected gov in office and as a result obide by their laws and pay for their actions be they good or bad
<2> Freemrkts: You find it amazing that people who accept a particular government as theirs need to accept responsibility for the actions of that government? I find that amazing since that's basic civics.
<6> Freemrkts -- collective guilt is the highest form of anti-individualism
<5> if you dont accept that then u dont belong ib said society
<4> thats implying its always democratically elected
<2> When you own the government, you own the government's actions.
<2> Democracy is m*** government ownership.
<3> Twobar you left california and I dont blame you because of the laws here you found immoral and if the feds enforced some of the same laws you wouldnt abide by them because its law you might to avoid prison but not because its law.. If you knew you could go on breaking the law and never be punished because of your location or something you wouldnt stop would you ?
<2> Hamas was democratically elected.
<3> I know I wouldnt.
<6> Freemrkts -- Whole tribes held responsible for the act of an individual member
<3> I wont hand over my guns if the government should ever order it, I wont.. Not unless I am sure I will be caught and go to prison because some ***hole on irc rats me out.
<1> Pickle: well, most support one milita or another
<1> so, there ya go
<4> what if your government violated its own tenants... like the US constitution (as an example)... what if your government did this repeatedly, over a period of decades, it increased the scope of its authority, infringed upon the rights of the people.. etc,etc
<1> bmc: 'tenets'
<4> bleh
<2> Freemrkts: Look at it this way. Consider a publicly-owned corporation. That corporation votes in a really stupid CEO. You as a shareholder don't approve of that CEO. You vote against him. The company tanks due to the CEO's stupidity. Are you or should you be shielded from the loss you'll take just because you didn't vote for him?
<4> what does the government become illegitimate?
<1> unless like I'm section 8
<4> when*
<2> Timur: That may or may not be but I refuse to treat people as collectives, though some here may think that's what I'm doing.
<3> Pickle, its not a corporation and money is not human dignity and life, you cant sell human dignity and life, I can sell stocks.
<2> Freemrkts: Is it? I thought we were talking about individual responsibility.
<1> well, when in effect they act as a collective, they often get treated as one.
<3> There is no proper analogy for it other than you accept collective guilt or you dont and if you do all of us humans should die.
<3> Bcause if you believe in collective Guilt we are guilty of murder and worse.
<1> no, that's.. not at all what collective guilt should imply.
<1> unless you're suicidal, which I, for one, ain't :)
<6> Corporation pools collective resources
<3> Exactly there should be no concept of collective guilt only a concept of individual guilty
<6> Corporation is a collective
<3> er guilt -y
<1> well, there's what arguably should be, then there's what is
<4> government is an instrument of society, as a collective singular body
<2> Freemrkts: I don't believe in collective guilt, and absolutely nothing I've said would indicate otherwise. I believe in individual responsibility, which includes your responsibility for the actions of things you own, such as a corporation or a government.
<5> if you live in a democrasy then cololective guilt is a part of voting in or out a government, your not responsible for peoples individuals actions but as a gov entity that was elected in your are responsible for it's actions.
<5> i can see that
<6> Nemes -- I only take credit for the positive Govt.
<4> haha
<5> heh
<3> Nemes, you should die because your government is Hamas if you never harmed anyone else before.. and you didnt vote them in ? You can see that ? Because this is what we are talking about.
<3> ultimately..
<5> the democratic process is how we in the west govern ourselves as fairly as we can
<3> But its a much larger principle which is a major principle and the highest principle philosophically I can think of.
<5> we have to accept responsibility for our actions of voting in or out gov's
<5> and their actions
<5> thats how i see it
<2> Freemrkts: Now, if something is m***-owned, such as a public corporation or a democratic government, by definition culpability for the actions of that entity are shared by multiple individuals. And that's not collectivism, that's simple logic.
<3> I dont care who gets into government in the USA or what they do. I own only what I approve of.
<2> If more than one person owns something, then more than one person is responsible for it.
<1> Pickle: agree
<3> I own the Iraq liberation, Others call it war.
<5> interesting debate this...
<6> Pickle -- Certainally, the economic functions of Govt are shared, though not equally
<7> ?
<3> I wish it was that simple.
<7> hey guys.. i am from israel
<8> ok i am really behind on technology
<8> these days
<6> Freemrkts -- You can call it what you want, since you are not being shot at
<7> and there's only one thing i wish that will happen
<8> whats the Intel Core processor
<8> is that like intel penti um
<8> or like intel celeron?
<9> Peace2: you mean the "Dual Core" ?
<8> and is windows vista out yet
<6> Freemrkts -- Unemployment is actually Operation Weekday Freedom
<8> ya
<0> oleymick is chicks4fre@IGLD-84-228-103-33.inter.net.il * ***
<0> foleymick on +#politics #worldcup #movies #dreamweaver
<10> AAAman, those being shot at are also calling it liberation.
<0> foleymick using irc.inter.net.il Internet Gold IRC Server
<9> Peace2: 2 cpu's in one.
<8> core duo
<0> no, you are not from israel, fool
<8> it is?
<9> Peace2: yes.
<8> is it good
<8> to have that
<9> depends.
<0> so, go ahead and say whatever stupid *** thing you are going to say
<2> Freemrkts: Yes, you do own it. As America is a democratically-elected government, it is owned by all citizens who accept the democratic process of American government-choosing as legitimate. So you own the Iraq War, you own the action of doling out tonnes of foreign aid, and yes, you own the bad things the government does too, such as gun control.
<5> Peace2, its a new type of pentium think on it like that, only its 2 cpu's in one because it has 3 cpu cores.
<11> how is incest treated by law
<9> Peace2: SMP is only good if the software is designed to take advantage of SMP.
<5> 2 cores rather not 3
<0> redfish likes mom
<3> Well if they are part of the group then lets nuke Palestinians and Israelis for their decades of collective murder and terrorism and Bloody evil. But there is a problem, I know many Israelis that find it as abhorrent as I do that an innocent palestinian be held responsible for his government when he has committed no crime.
<9> Peace2: for most users; currently; it is not useful.
<7> i see how the jews running this country.. and i honestly hope iran will nuke us...
<7> this country just isn't working
<11> towbra
<3> And it wouldnt end in Palestinian territories or israel it would be All of us..
<10> hahaha, good grief
<2> Freemrkts: And since the Palestinian pseudo-state is also a democracy, all the Palestinians who accept it as theirs own it, as well. And its actions.
<3> And then noone has a right to live.
<1> foleymick: wow, you're really.. wierd
<0> mow ron
<1> 'all of us'?
<8> hmm
<11> twobr it was a serious question
<8> so dual core is bad
<0> sure is hard to predict morons
<3> Because collectively people who say they represent us or more correctly the land I live on is governed by government *A or B* Whether or not I concent or even know about it.
<8> i was just lookign at some dell laptops and they had it
<8> i should get pentium 4m instead?
<9> Dual Core chip; not handy with an OS that can handle SMP; then you want software running that will use the SMP... otherwise; why have it?
<8> and is vista out yet
<5> Peace2 no its GREAT
<1> ok, well, if one paints with a brush that broad, then it applies to everything, and so, since the discussion ceases to have any sense of nuance or proportionality, it ceases to have meaning.
<9> that can not handle SMP; typo
<3> But thee fact that I live here makes me guilty for the crimes of my government.
<8> nemes what is great the core?
<3> No I dont accept that
<3> I wont accept that
<9> Peace2: Dual Core is great; just not for most users.
<3> I will be on my death bed rejecting that as a silly concept
<8> well whats the benefits of it
<5> Peace2 dual cored cpu's are superb pieces of enginearing
<2> Freemrkts: And that was my original point. The Palestinians who accept the Hamas government as their legitimate government, own it, and own its actions, and certainly deserve to enjoy or suffer the positive or negative consequences of those actions, commensurate to their level of ownership.
<9> Peace2: most gamers would find a dual core chip; currently useless.
<12> well, multi processors or cores can help overall system responsiveness when doing more than one thing
<8> oh ok
<1> FT: what won't you accept?
<8> i do a lot of more than oen thing
<11> freetrade, how is incest treated by law
<3> It is the greatest insult to all of humanity to make a case for collective Guilt.. And a greator insult yet to the group one is judging.
<8> frequnetly have a lot of windows up
<5> Peace2, well say i do lots of video work or play really top of the line video games with the latest graphics etc the 2 cores in my cpu handle the load simultaniously making for more power
<1> I disagree.
<9> Nemes: SMP has been around for years; it's great; but most people cant take advantage of it.
<12> Libertine: i disagree with that. Many people do more than one thing at a time on their computer.
<1> sometimes collective guilt is more merited than at other times. See, circumstances sometimes.. are different.
<5> they push the load across the 2 cores instead of one core so you have 2 cores dealing with the load were before you had only 1
<3> Timur, its never justified ever.
<3> ever
<2> Freemrkts: Agreed.
<1> well, I, and most of the world, seem to disgree.
<9> Lupine: doing more then one thing at a time has nothing to do with SMP unless your OS and software knows to distribute the load over the two or more cpu's.
<1> otherwise, there'd never be wars, see.
<13> Lupine -- yup multi-tasking is the name of the "game" with puters
<3> Timur No I woudl say at least in america you are in a minority
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