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Comments:
<0> And people who are criminals would be tossed out or in jail depending on their crime.
<1> people born into any state of the union are citizens regardless of federal government
<1> regardless of 14th amendment
<2> So when I say that the Palestinians deserve the consequences of voting for Hamas as their government--I mean ALL Palestinians who accept Hamas as their legitimate government, whether they voted for it or not, and for the reasons I explained, there is nothing at all collectivist about that.
<0> I dont consider coming to America a crime like a lot of people do but thats up to them, we all have to make our own decisions. Ultimately laws are not right because they are law they are right because the "tribe" layed down the law with the power it wields.
<1> dont think they could strip citizenship of a "soverign citizen"
<0> Be it a dictatorship or a Majority of idiots.
<0> Thats all law is.
<2> It is about the action of each Palestinian in accepting a government they didn't vote for as, nonetheless, the legitimate government of their state-in-waiting.
<0> All that matters to me is morality
<1> sovereign(sp?) damn i dont know how to spell that word
<2> And frankly, since it was democratically elected, they SHOULD consider it the legitimate government.
<0> Well, Not all Palestinians voted for Hamas in fact it wasnt much of a majority if I recall and many of the votes were protest votes.
<2> Freemrkts: Again, if you accept the process that put them in power as being legitimate, you accept them as your government whether you actually voted for them or not.
<2> The government represents you as long as you respect the process that put it in place, which in this case is democracy.
<3> lol "protest" votes
<1> coming to america illegally is a crime, regardless of what any individual thinks on the matter, US law says its illegal, we can either change the law, or leave it as is and adhere to it.. i dont think it sets a very good precedent just deciding to not follow certain laws though
<3> you don't vote for someone out of protest
<0> Pickle thats your opinion its not a reality its not a universality. Many of them do not accept the govt but they have no choice anymore than I have a choice who my government is in California, I rely on the US constitution to protect my *** and the Supreme court.
<2> Freemrkts: This isn't simply my opinion. This is a basic tenet of governmental legitimacy in general and that of democracy as the means of selecting the government in particular.
<2> The preferred means, that is.
<0> Tenets are principles which people may or may not share.
<2> Freemrkts: Every individual has a choice whether to accept the democratic process or not.
<2> There are people living in compounds all over America who refuse to accept the current democratic process as legitimate, and the current leaders, as an extension, as legitimate.
<0> Government is legitimate or illegitimate based on the actions of the government. not neccesarily the voters, or the voters that voted for thew it depends on a lot of things. Did everyone who voted for hitler originally support antisemitism ? Highly unlikely... its likely a lot of them did, but a lot of them liked his super nationalism because they were a nation ****ed over by world war 1.
<2> They have a legitimate case for the government not representing them, since they reject it and the process that put it in place's legitimacy. If you accept that process as legitimate, then, logically, you have no such case to make.
<0> Because you elect a government and I have never been so emotional to vote on the basis of nationalism or any emotion. I vote on principle, but I am only responsible for that which I support within my government.
<0> I own up to my own political views.
<0> I dont own up to my governments position nor am I responsible for it, nor am I guilty because of its war on drugs or anything it does which is unjust.
<0> Of course people will disagree with me on what good laws are.
<3> I still find it a horrible reason to vote for somebody
<0> and sometimes noone is right neccesarily because its too subjective.
<2> Freemrkts: The only impact on the legitimacy of a government is its capability to rule and the means by which it is put in power--ie by the governed or by external forces.
<0> They both might have very great principles.
<2> Freemrkts: You are talking about the morality of a particular government, which is a wholly different issue. Hamas is clealy amoral, but nonetheless legitimate.
<0> Pickle but the point you miss is not everyone in a given society puts someone into power, if they did then yes they would all be responsible, but to do that they all have to support that government and its ideals.
<2> The vast majority of Palestinians accept the process that put Hamas in place as being legitimate. That's all that is required for a government to be legitimate.
<0> And Ive never seen any country in the world with 100% unamimous opinion.
<0> Pickle, I was never about the vast majority or majority or bare majority whatever it may be, I was talking from the beginning about the individual.
<0> That is one person..
<2> Freemrkts: I don't miss that point. That point is irrelevant because all that matters is whether the individuals being governed accept the process that put the government in place as being legitimate.
<0> Each person having the right and all others having the obligation to judge this individual based on what this individuals life has beenl, has he committed immoral acts and do they warrant the punishment offered etc
<2> That, is the textbook definition of governmental legitimacy, along with the *ability* of the government to govern.
<0> Pickle, Do you accept that Canada is a socialist state and that its your fault ?
<2> Freemrkts: That's right. Every individual makes the decision as to whether the process by which the government came into being is legitimate. If they do, then the government represents them as their legitimate government, whether they voted for it or not.
<0> Because I dont accept the injustices of my country.
<2> Freemrkts: I accept that the current bunch of socialists who run the country are my legitimate government.
<1> what if the people dont really recognize it as legitimate, and only accept it out of apathy, complacency and the inability to imagine it being any different
<2> Freemrkts: Why? Because I accept the process that put them in power.
<1> it is still legitimate? :P
<2> bmc: Silence is consent.
<0> Pickle, I accept that they have the power, yes, but thats all and thats not the point.
<4> hello
<4> all
<4> may i join
<2> Freemrkts: No, that's not the point, you are correct. The point is that you accept the process that put the government in place as being legitimate.
<5> Want, jump right in.
<4> :P
<4> :D
<0> The point was that you were suggesting that the palestinians collectively were all guilty of the fact that hamas was in power and that came about out of a discussion of terrorism in which I said the ones who are not terrorists dont deserve the mistreatment of outside people or thier own people.
<2> And whether you put the government in place or not, you accept the process that put them in place, which means the government is your legitimate government.
<1> you have to accept the process to be subject to it
<4> who is terrorism?????
<1> it will be forced upon you
<1> against your will
<1> you dont have*
<0> In fact this isnt so abstract, Its about Israelis and Palestinians, Two groups who lived In palestine together during the ottoman and British mandates, of which the british mandate both sided gladly accepted as their government.
<4> i tinks USA is terrorism...
<1> oh joy
<0> Both sided = both sides.
<2> Freemrkts: The Palestinians are responsible for the actions of their legitimate government, yes. Just like I am responsible for the actions of my legitimate government, even though I didn't vote for them. Unless I cease to accept the process by which they came to power (and by extension, the government itself) as legitimate, it's my government and as such I'm responsible for its actions.
<5> Want, where are you from?
<4> in the world
<4> USA is really terrorism
<1> Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington
<0> So Pickle you would accept as justice the punishment of yourself for the actions of your govenment ?
<5> Want, to whom?
<0> Yes government is force..
<1> thats a good comparsion
<4> every body
<1> comparing government to fire
<1> like a controlled burn
<1> careful or it might get out of hand, and leave you all homeless
<6> that's not really an apt comparison.
<1> :P
<7> man, i love this SouthPark commentary on Hybrid owners.. smugness
<5> Want, ok, if you say so.
<0> And people who dont think beyond government and determine morality individually and only accept the dictates of government are merely slaves to an institution
<2> Freemrkts: Yes, if my government committed belligerent acts, I would accept any negative repurcussions of those belligerent acts. I wouldn't call that "punishment", exactly, but it doesn't change the basic point.
<1> Timur- why isnt it? an out of control government is no less dangerous than an out of control fire
<6> bmc: I was really addressing the FT-Pickle discussion.. I'd tend to agree with you, up to a point.
<6> hi all, btw
<1> oh, my bad
<0> The whole idea of philosophy and religion is to rise above the state. Jesus said the laws are not for the enlightened, they are for those who are not enlightened, so he ignored government. And I agree the laws of my land are to keep the savages under control because I dont need law to act morally. Since I have thought out philosophically the whole concept of morality
<0> Hello Timur
<6> hiya FT
<1> i kinda like that comparison, makes sense on a couple diff levels
<8> SciFi is push Gores movie
<2> Freemrkts: Consider the example of World War II. The Nazi government, for all its evil, was the legitimate government of Germany at the time. As a consequence of that government's actions, the German people were forced to accept restrictions on their ability to self-govern for decades to come. This was certainly approprite--the German people suffered the consequences of the actions of their legitimate government.
<0> I love America, but when I say that I dont really think of my government when I say it..
<6> I do
<8> I got to go hide global warming is going to get me
<0> I think of my people, their principles, their belief in individualism and individual justice.
<6> as one aspect of it, albeit an important one
<6> a diamond has many facets, as it were
<0> I think thats the highest and most noble and outstanding compared to other nations quality of the American.
<0> The individualist.
<0> The individual who only allowed government because he needed it, not because he liked it or wanted it.
<1> Lupine what do you think about the hybrids being able to drive on HOV lanes?
<0> We recognize it as a neccesary evil.
<1> Lupine considering the average hybrid driver is driving slower than traffic, to maximize that efficiency (according to stats anyways)
<1> if theyre going 90 they dont need the HOV lane, they arent saving anything or reducing emissions that way
<0> But at the same time I support that which I can support and not what i do nto support, and I only take responsibility for my individual actions not the actions of my state or nation.
<0> Like Steven Seagall :) Above the law..
<6> in terms of dealing with foreign powers, I'm not sure how useful the idea of 'government as a necessary evil' really is, however
<2> Freemrkts: Now, as a citizen, I have very strict criteria by which I will judge the legitimacy of my government. One is the process by which it comes to power--it should be democratically elected. But that's another debate. We are talking about what your responsibilities as a citizen are, ***uming that you HAVE accepted a government as legitimate.
<9> Freemrkts - -I am pressed to think of founding father who believed Govt to be evil. Can you suggest one?
<0> But I dont mean that in a conceited way, quite the contrary in a way of humility.. I am not in need of the law because I realize my capacity for evil and I control it the state doesnt control it.
<10> I ONLY trust a government which is wise and benign: ours is neither.
<2> And one of those responsibilities is to accept the negative consequences of your legitimate, representative government's actions.
<0> Knowing the evil nature of man makes me more responsible than even government requires.
<9> Freemrkts -- Americans early discovered that the lack of an effective Govt is evil
<1> i dont think they should have drafted a new constitution
<0> The law is for those who dont have their individual morality sorted out, to scare the with punishment or entire them with pleasure, in some ways religion is like that but only when religion is acting like government which it has acted like through most of human history.
<1> maybe just added a bill of rights, and some "federal" bodies under the articles
<2> Freemrkts: If a person allows their government to commit evil acts (and note the word "their"--I am ***uming it IS theirs, ie they accept its legitimacy), then they need to accept that there will be negative consequences. This is why we strive to limit the size and scope of government.
<1> like a federal legislative body, just delegates of the states
<1> and a supreme court
<2> That is the ultimate individualism. There's nothing collectivist about it.
<1> dont need a federal executive body
<10> AAAman, did you know that in the 1830's there were a number of small towns on rivers and such, that attempted socialism...every one failed for the same reasons. People soon realize that very few want to work, while those that dont work get as much food and benefits.
<1> thats just adding unnecessary layers
<6> Pickle: what if evil acts are committed by a populace absent governmental direction and control
<11> the law is control all members of a society just or un just
<6> don't they then still bear the consequences of those actions, government-inspired or not?
<9> Tension between control and anarchy is healthy
<11> is for the control -rather-
<0> Never mix Religion and politics, well they are both political unless you say take what I take from jesus or any great philosopher and take it to heart. But thats why I am an atheist and a minarchist.
<1> what is the purpose of a seperate federal executive body anyways?
<0> Anyone in here never violate the law ?
<9> Twobar -- Unfornately, these people were poor and were forced to work to survive. If one is rich, no such problem exists
<2> Timur: Then each individual is responsible for his or her own actions. That's why, before Hamas became the legitimate government of the Palestinians, I would never have said that the Palestinians as a nation need to accept the consequences of Hamas' bad behaviour.
<1> couldnt the states have a counsel and a form a "FBI" and a "CIA" and whatever else without an entire new level/branch of government
<1> never understood that
<11> the law of your land forces u to pay taxes, take driving tests keep speed limits and not rob banks, if you dont agree and obide by those laws then you justly accept punishment
<10> AAAman, if one is rich, than economic systems dont matter
<11> when you vvote in a gov u accept what they do as a part of your vote
<2> Timur: But once you accept Hamas as being your legitimate government, you deserve everything that comes from that government's actions, both positive and negative.
<6> Pickle: eh, except it wasn't just Hamas engaged in terrorist acts.
<6> it was all their militias.
<10> Everybody breaks laws. its' been said that a government has exceeded its boundaries when you break a law every time you turn around and dont even realize it
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