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Comments:
<0> let the gop keep the house
<1> Seriously because they will do one thing for 2 years.
<1> Try the Bush administration for every conspiracy theory they can hatch
<1> and they may even try an impeachment..
<2> I didn't call for collective justice
<0> voice of the people = house .. the people are conservative
<1> And the people would be furious.
<0> senate is the voice of the state, of course they would be liberal
<3> would be nice if dems win both houses and that will happen if bush screws up bad enough - not that he already hasn't
<1> Rob You said the Arabs didnt deserve another state or something. And Pickle said that because the majority voted for Hamas they all deserve whatever they get.
<0> makes perfect sense, we should change the government... house = majority (people) .. senate = minority (state), all bills would originate in the house
<0> i think we could make the government work alot smoother than it does now
<2> Freemrkts: how many states do the arabs need anyway?
<1> Anyway, its the principles that matter.
<1> I am not a bigot.
<2> yes, it is the principles...
<1> Rob, as many as they want.
<2> Jews have one state
<1> As long as its legal.
<1> Rob, Thats right and I support it.
<1> If they want to subdivide it and make more states thats fine too.
<1> You see I agree with Sharon, before he died. And Olmert today..
<0> what about three autonomous districts/states, under one federal flag?
<2> then let the arabs subdivide a piece of land
<2> why does this new state need to be carved from Israel and Israel alone?
<1> Define the boundaries of Israel and then let the palestinians figure it out themselves if they want to establish a nation or not.
<0> sorta like the US was created to be
<2> makes you wonder what they are really up to
<1> No its not being carved from israel.
<0> oh you mean palestine
<0> heh
<2> actually, the plan is to carve it out of Israel
<1> In fact Israel is taking 10% of thier land which I dont object to.
<2> that is Israeli land
<3> disco and cocaine
<4> better than supporting them in corruption =)
<3> lol
<2> not "their" land
<1> No if you knew anything about whats going on in israel, Olmert is defining the boundaries with the help of other people and the Supreme court.
<0> RobVanDam no its not, its palestine land under UN partition plan
<1> they are creating the boundary.
<2> bmc: lol
<1> Which I have n objection to/.
<0> wasnt that part of the "agreement" that recognized the state of israel\
<2> bmc: they abandoned it
<2> actually
<1> The outside areas are palestinian, whether they want to be fractious territories or a nation state is up to them.
<2> the un plan was really screwy
<1> Its not Israels responsibility or any of ours. Thats up to them.
<2> it was like a jigsaw puzzle and lollipop
<0> not really
<1> They difnt abandon it, unless you consider running from a gun abandonment.
<2> they didn't run from any gun
<2> there arab breathren told them they should leave
<1> Without the UN plan Israel would have had no right to a state, and I think it helped legitimize the Israeli state.
<2> so they could destroy Israel
<2> I know my history
<1> I dont know if the world would have accepted it if not for the un resolution calling for 2 states and the end of ww2.
<5> Freemrkts: I said that the Palestinian people deserve their legitimately elected government and all the consequences ***ociated with electing that government. Isn't that fair?
<1> Your history ?"
<1> Who are you ?
<2> yes
<2> the history
<0> http://www.p***ia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1947-un-partition-plan-reso.html
<1> You are an american arent you ?
<2> meaning I know history
<2> damn
<6> pickle: i agree. I also agree, that with NO re-electing ray nagin.. they also deserve what ever happens next.
<1> No you said you know your history, I know Israeli History.. And I know my history which is American.
<2> oy vey
<2> taking everything literally now?
<0> israel already occupies land outside their boundaries recognized by the international community
<5> And more generally, any people deserves the government that they legitimately elected, and the consequences ***ociated with electing it.
<1> Pickle no its no more fair than if Pelosi is elected, they take my house my money and my gun..
<2> the phrase "I know my history" is said by someone who is saying they know history quite well
<1> Of course its not fair.
<0> not gaza, not west bank
<2> bmc: **** the international community
<1> There is no such thing other than individual justice.
<6> ultimately, people get the government they deserve
<0> just palestinian territory
<6> for example: all those who do not support the second amendment, do not deserve any other amendment protection.
<0> RobVanDam without the international community, where would israel be today?
<1> Lupine, Cute, but Im not sure if its true.. and define the people, All the people or the ones who wanted it ?
<2> bmc: more people would be alive
<2> bmc: less terrorist attacks
<0> im not sure it would even exist, without support of the international community
<6> FM: that is the responsibility aspect of democracy
<0> i didnt see god flying in M60 tanks :P
<5> Freemrkts: By definition a government that is legitimate represents all the people, whether they voted for it or not. Clinton represented you, even if you didn't vote for him--he was still your legitimate President. Stephen Harper represents me as Prime Minister, even though I voted for a different party.
<1> RobVanDam, We forgave and Britain forgave the Israelis who were terrorists when they changed. But these were political terrorists just as the palestinians are, which I dont forgive because thye havent changed. Its about land. Ideological terrorism is totally different, Palestinians dont give a damn how we live in the USA except that we finance the bombs that rain down on thier citizens.
<2> Freemrkts: no....
<5> Freemrkts: Similarly, Hamas represents the Palestinian state-in-waiting, and the people who comprise the citizens of that state, whether they voted for Hamas or not.
<2> Freemrkts: you see, political terrorists do not knowingly kill civilians without giving them a chance to evacuate
<0> doesnt hamas, as ****ed up as they are, actually contribute positively to the palestinian people?
<0> heh, i remember post 9/11 there was some talk about that
<2> lol
<2> overall bmc?
<2> no
<0> cause these people were donating to this charity
<0> that was connected with some hamas thing
<1> Advanced Philosophy, Individuals are only responsibility for thier own acts and actions. And Libertarian and basically American Jurisprudence philosophy agree that there is no such thing as collective justice or injustice unelss every member of a group is responsible.
<0> and they were trying to say they were supporting terrorists
<0> when the money was actually being used for some sort of aid
<1> Now if Pelosi is Speaker of the house in 2008, It will neither be the government I want, or chose, nor the government I deserver..
<0> i dont remember the details, but hamas is more than suicide bombers
<1> And I wont accept that I am responsible for her congress.
<5> Freemrkts: As a citizen, your acceptance of the ruling government as legitimate is the action that makes you responsible for the actions of that government.
<2> yes bmc, they are also knife wielders
<0> RobVanDam i didnt mean overwall, just "at all"
<1> Pickle, I dont accept the ruling governments authority unless its just I never have.
<2> and they set up ieds
<0> they almost have to make -some- positive contribution in some way, or they wouldnt have popular support
<1> Its why I have supported things which drive people like rob nuts such as a path to legality for illegal aliens.
<5> Freemrkts: As long as you have continued to participate in the governing process as a citizen--IE, you vote, and you do not enter into active rebellion against the government, you have accepted the government's rule as legitimate.
<0> RobVanDam i was thinking more in the financial department
<1> I have rejected that type of collective ideology since I was 13.
<1> because it was clear to me even at a young age that it was not justice.
<5> Freemrkts: It isn't a collective ideology. I am talking about your actions as an individual.
<2> lol it doesn't drive me nuts
<1> Justice is to each according to his due, not his needs.
<2> it is just to kick the illegals out
<2> they should have applied
<2> for a visa
<5> Freemrkts: So you didn't accept the Clinton administration as the legitimate government of the United States? You didn't acknowledge Clinton as the legitimately-elected President?
<2> if I was an illegal, I would expect nothing less
<0> i dont support a "specialpathway to citizenship
<7> Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel, Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts ***essing the impact of 9/11 and the future of the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organisation.
<0> er
<2> I would hope they wouldn't, but I would expect to get kicked out
<1> Pickle and I just said I am not voting for Pelosis government so It wont be my responsibility no matter what they do in the house should the democrats get control, and when some conservative in Australia looks up here and says they get the government they deserve, I shall look back at him and say, No sir, I did not.
<0> i dont support a "special" pathway to citizenship for illegals, all immigrants have a legal pathway to citizenship, they just have to be patient and follow it
<1> My obedience to law has been based on the principle of the law vs the punishment.
<7> And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell, said Zelikow.
<8> israel is too much of a problem for the us in the middle east, half the problem iran is such a haggle
<5> Freemrkts: Whether you vote for a government is irrelevant. All that matters is that you accept the government as the legtimiate government of the state you live in. '
<1> Not the law itself, even though I realize the rule of law is neccesary its complicated.
<5> That makes it your government.
<1> but I feel no compunction to follow or to give a damn about a law which I dont think brings justice.
<6> ah yes, just a typical game of rugby http://www.hostmypiconline.com/images/d363b4e9ac44991f6033641fc8c930a1.jpg
<0> its not about what the individual thinks though
<7> zelikow = 9/11 coverup commission member and close friend of Condi "Dragon Lady" Rice
<0> its the collective voice of the people, not the voice of each individual
<5> Legitimate, even.
<0> if we all only follow laws WE feel are legitimate
<0> we'd all live in anarchy
<1> like kicking some mexican out who has build this country for 15 years becasue he came here illegally.. If he harms anyone whiile he is here he should pay for it. But I dont have control over my government or things would be a lot different in the USA.
<5> Freemrkts: Going back to the Clinton example--you didn't vote for the Clinton administration, but you did (I ***ume) accept Clinton as the legitimate President of the United States. That makes him your President, and his administration your government. And there is nothing collectivist about that--it's about your individual actions and attitude as a citizen towards the ruler.
<1> If I was running this country, Illegals on welfare would get tossed (too bad we cant do it to legals).
<1> And people who are criminals would be tossed out or in jail depending on their crime.
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