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Comments:
<US_Male> I will make fun of Cheney but it's just false that he'd be arrested anywhere in the US, unless the person who was shot said it was intentional
<Lupine> e-hernick: for the US, snipers shoot to kill. Not to maim. It is not worth the risk of exposing his position to wound
<gop> e-Hernick: he may look like a coward but he also may be smater then others
<e-Hernick> Lupine: of course they do
<Lupine> US: right, ***uming it was legally permissable hunting
<gop> e-Hernick: does they are not coward
<FreeTrade> and there was 3 brigades of americans in the area but they were well out numbered and in this battle of the Ia Drang Valley its ture that 400 americans took on about 3000 vietnamese.
<gop> they have no feeligns
<gop> feeligs
<FreeTrade> Of course we had napalm
<gop> feelings
<Lupine> e-hernick: No, they do not. Not actual snipers. A regular sharpshooter taking pot shots is not being a true sniper
<FreeTrade> which kept our guys alive.
<Lupine> a true sniper may take several days setting up. depending on conditions. One shot, one kill
<e-Hernick> gop: Smarts have nothing to do with it. They're trained humans, like animals, trained to kill. Their intelligence doesn't enter into it. They're trained according to military doctrine, and the army sends them out to shoot people at a distance. Isn't that cowardly?
<FreeTrade> And the NVA constantly snuck across the Cambodian border because back then we wouldnt violate the border which was stupid
<gop> e-Hernick: so are you tranied to kill
<gop> e-Hernick: no they are not
<FreeTrade> IN a war if the enemy crosses a national line in the jungle you ought to follow.
<gop> e-Hernick: snipers have a special skill
<e-Hernick> What, are you saying they're not animals?
<gop> not trained
<e-Hernick> Of course they have a special skill.
<Lupine> e-hernick: anyone with a gun is cowardly? because they dont run up to them with a sword and hack it "mono a mono"?
<FreeTrade> At least while in hot pursuit
<gop> e-Hernick: something not tought
<FreeTrade> when you lose them all get back on the other side.
<gop> self learned e-Hernick
<FreeTrade> NVA used this against a lot
<FreeTrade> Used the cambodian side of the border.
<Lupine> btw: the ability to shoot is a tiny fraction of what makes a sniper, a sniper
<gop> e-Hernick: the idiots is the one who goes in front of gunman
<gop> the smart solider hides and then waites and then attacks
<FreeTrade> Nixon was crucified by liberals becase he actuaally bombed the cambodian side.
<e-Hernick> They have the special skill of having good sniping genetics, lots of practice, and lots of training in doctrine. I'm not saying that everybody has the natural ability to shoot like that, but just being able to shoot isn't being a sniper. They're trained in stealth, equipement, and covert killing tactics.
<FreeTrade> The soldiers did not lose the war in vietnam. The goddamn politicians and the public in america lost the ****ing war.
<gop> e-Hernick: the best snipers have not been trained
<e-Hernick> Also, they have a license to kill. The smart soldier follows orders and improvises when necessary.
<gop> e-Hernick: you can't train best
<gop> the best train sharpshooters
<Timur> FT: think we were not brutal enough?
<FreeTrade> Thats a shameful period of US History.
<US_Male> lots of spec ops guys have experience hunting
<FreeTrade> Though I suppose we learned some important lessons from it.
<FreeTrade> Timur, we fought war by strict rules.
<Lupine> gop: well, in the US.. the best sharpshooter may not make it as a sniper
<e-Hernick> gop: Actually depressing the trigger is a tiny part of their job. Their job is to sneak up, spot, shoot, retreat.. There's way more in the job of a sniper than to press the trigger.
<FreeTrade> The enemy didn't.
<FreeTrade> It wasnt fair or right.
<e-Hernick> gop: And of course they receive m***ive amounts of training.
<FreeTrade> We didnt openly cross into North Vietnam half the time.
<FreeTrade> we did covertly
<Lupine> Timur: ignoring tankers in port.. to bomb some 55 gallon drums.. is not being "less brutal"
<FreeTrade> 5children shall not play here!
<FreeTrade> But we were there as a "defensive" force
<gop> e-Hernick: that a logical ***umption on thier part, that is they are born with a skill to not be noticed
<FreeTrade> And in the back of Johnson and Macnamaras mind was the soviets and their nuclear bombs.
<gop> but oh k you got a point
<FreeTrade> And it was the soviets ironically helping vietnam more so than the chinese.
<Timur> Lup: why didn't we bomb the tankers?
<Lupine> gop: patience is something that is not very trainable
<Timur> maybe would kill some Russians I guess
<e-Hernick> gop: born with a skill? No. You might be born with superior genetics, that will make it possible for you to develop such and such skill, but you aren't born with the ability to sharpshoot.
<Lupine> timur: because the pilots were under orders not to.
<FreeTrade> I though nixons bombing of the ho chi minh trial was one of the most intelligent moves in the war...
<FreeTrade> At home ? The New york times and every other major newspaper blasted Nixon for it
<e-Hernick> gop: maybe you're born with the potential, but not the skill. You need lots of training to become a sniper, but not everybody has the necessary potential. Also, snipers are pretty weak compared to missiles and bombers.
<US_Male> you learn a lot of hunting skills over several years if you are raised with hunting..... they can't just teach al that in a coupleyears for the army
<FreeTrade> I never supported the vietnam war and certainly not the draft.
<Sara96> [Premise] In a Hartford, Conn., needle-distribution program, for example, drug addicts are demanding taxpayer-funded needles at four times the expected rate. [Premise] Although there may not yet be evidence of increased substance abuse, [Conclusion] there is obviously no incentive in such schemes to help drug-addiction victims get cured.
<US_Male> they can teach the military aspects
<Lupine> by and large, the politicians refused to allow the US military to fight effective..
<gop> e-Hernick: not back in the 70's
<Sara96> im pretty sure i labled those right, anyone see any errors? :/
<FreeTrade> But I supported that once we were there than our american sons and Daughters win.
<gop> Lupine: that is true
<Timur> Lup: I understand , but why such orders?
<US_Male> but being a sneay bastard can take practice
<FreeTrade> I was scared to death of the war.
<US_Male> sneaky
<FreeTrade> the war ended 3 years before I could of been drafted.
<Lupine> timur: who knows.. who cares, when it got 100k's of US soldiers killed
<gop> dam democarts brought us in to nam, but didn't fight the correct war
<e-Hernick> You know who developed the first good guided cruise missile? The japanese and their kamikaze guided missiles. Very effective, but a bit expensive. I suppose that if the electronics don't exist, you can just substitute them with a human brain, but it was expensive.
<gop> why did the democarts bring us to nam
<FreeTrade> wait
<FreeTrade> 2 years
<e-Hernick> Though, the point is, today's missiles are the evolution of the kamikaze, and that's why they're so useful.
<FreeTrade> GOP, Well Kennedy ramped up the advisory role of the US, France left
<gop> oh
<Lupine> e-hernick: well.. 150lbs + gear is kind of a weight penality compared to a 2lb computer :-)
<FreeTrade> And then LBJ decided to fight the war seriously
<gop> oh
<FreeTrade> So thats when became a defacto war
<TimothyWT> gop : blame the french and the united nations for bringing us into Vietnam.
<FreeTrade> Under Johnson.
<e-Hernick> Lupine: that's why I'm talking about evolution
<e-Hernick> Yeah, blame europe!
<FreeTrade> Johnson ran one term and denied the nomination for a 2nd term.
<Lupine> FT: I know my grandfather was in/out of vietnam when most US forces were engaged in korea
<e-Hernick> I mean, what problem isn't europe's fault. The last two world wars, vietnam, Israel, even Iraq! All remnants of europe.
<gop> oh he denied
<gop> wow
<FreeTrade> So he shirked his responsibility to finish what he started, OR he realized he was bad at what he was doing.
<FreeTrade> Nixon won on the campaign slogan that we would end the war with dignity...
<Lupine> e-hernick: alot of it stems from Europe not accepting their loss of dominance after the japanese kicked their ***es out in WWII
<FreeTrade> Not with our tails between our legs running.
<FreeTrade> But then nixon got embroiled in whitewater
<gop> FreeTrade: oh I tought nixon wanted to the war, that aka he didn't support it
<gop> oh bother
<FreeTrade> Wait
<gop> the leftist history got it all wrong
<FreeTrade> Watergate
<gop> FreeTrade: I was learning history from a bush bashing professor
<e-Hernick> Lupine: exactly. and now america has to pay for it. I think that Europe should own up to its mistakes and fix the middle east
<gop> so I never took a history course again
<gop> I put forth facts, and was taken down
<FreeTrade> And thats why I now oppose Impeachments during the presidency unless its a very severe crime.
<gop> I put debate about how she was incorrectly stating stuff
<Lupine> e-hernick: and not that it excuses their actions.. but ALOT of the strife in africa has to do with teh rapid decolinization by european powers
<FreeTrade> ***ual Harr***ment in retrospect was not severe enough
<e-Hernick> gop: the guy's a uniter, not a divider.
<FreeTrade> nor was lying about it.
<Timur> Lup: well, I care, because I wouldn't want a repeat of such
<FreeTrade> Clinton should not have been impeached.
<gop> e-Hernick: well this professor hated bush, and no cared about her rants
<TimothyWT> e-Hernick : The French couldn't fight the North Vietnamese. So they pulled out and let us go in blah blah The Diplomacy failed in the UN Security Council.
<FreeTrade> Nixon should of been busted after he finished his term..
<e-Hernick> gop: I'm saying that's because he's a uniter, not a divider.
<Lupine> FT: IMHO, if the president is "immune" from criminal charges until he is out of office, he OUGHT to be "immune" to civil charges as well.
<e-Hernick> gop: he united your resolve to get along with those who agree with you
<Lupine> I'm SICK AN DTIRED of this idea that civil-court is exempt from all constitutional protections etc
<Lupine> Timur: I agree. Politicians should not be involved in dictating how we wage war, except for in the most broadest of terms
<Timur> I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired!
<FreeTrade> Anyway when nixon was spending half his time on his defense of hissself and half on the defense of the nation, He started going nuts and our peace initiatives (Paris Peace Accords" started going nuts.
<e-Hernick> Timur: I think you're sick and tired of always being second tire.
<FreeTrade> The Vietnamese took advantage of watergate and we ended up leaving in what can only be described as a logistical nightmare.
<Timur> Lup: right, but if there are Russians involved in shipments, and killing them would exacerbate tensions with a not-yet-defeated superpower, that might at least explain if not justify such a decision (imo)
<Timur> e-H: eh, working on it.
<e-Hernick> Who didn't take advantage of watergate?
<Lupine> then bomb the harbor itself
<FreeTrade> IN retrospect and in the future, I will never support an impeachment for anything less that a severe crime against a person or our nation.
<FreeTrade> Rape yes
<FreeTrade> ***ual harr***ment
<FreeTrade> no
<FreeTrade> Lying about it
<FreeTrade> No
<Lupine> we were fighting russians in migs over korea and vietnam.. why not russians in ships?
<gop> Most of you know, at the end of last year, a liberal congressman from Pennsylvania insisted we immediately withdraw our troops from Iraq," Johnson told the Conservative Political Action Conference on Thursday. "When I heard this, it made my blood boil."
<FreeTrade> Do I think its a crime to lie about it ?
<FreeTrade> 100%
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