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Comments:
<0> whereas its against the quran to illustrate mohammed
<1> wtf? my cell phone says check SIM"
<2> maybe get the new york times to print some holocaust denial cartoons
<3> Thats why Iraq was more important, and also because Iranians have more individual freedom than Iraq had.
<0> i mean, i see why they're getting upset
<0> granted, its getting blown out of proportion
<3> And Iran is a much larger country twice the size of Iraq.
<4> td: they do, and they see the crap on al-Jazeera, which goes into like every Arab family's home in Israel and the territories
<4> and cafes, etc
<5> You'd think that after the Palestinians voted to elect a party dedicated to the eradication of Israel, western apologists would have stopped this ridiculous rationalization-of-hate game. But nope, they're still at it.
<3> The military option in Iraq would be very different.
<3> It would involve mostly air power with possibly some commando operations.
<5> Nothing the Palestinians do, no matter how barbaric, is their fault. It's all Israel.
<2> dedicated to the eradication of israel?
<4> Pickle: gotta admire their consistency ;)
<4> td: yep, read Hamas' platform
<4> it's not subtle
<5> Meanwhile, the Israelis accidentally hit a civilian in the course of a shootout with gunmen, and they're butchering evil nazis.
<4> Pickle: right, nice double standard
<2> Whats with the israeli bias in here
<4> again, consistent
<4> td: what's with your anti-Israeli bias/
<2> they can do no wrong
<6> I want to butcher some evil nazis
<5> td: Yes, Hamas is dedicated to the eradication of Israel.
<3> They voted against the former government and I think a lot of them already are questioning their vote for hamas party members and leaders.
<4> they can and do, but that doesn't mean that the criticism of Europe, for example, or the hard left is wrong
<3> Face it the PA wasnt getting them anywhere.
<2> I'm not anti israel im just trying to suggest some things
<4> it wasn't
<2> for discussion purposes
<4> td: fine, except they're baseless
<3> But I think in the long wrong it actually may be good for Israel that Hamas won.
<4> at least so far
<2> you know, try some ideas.
<5> td: Yes. You're trying to rationalize the barbaric actions of Palestinians.
<3> Long wrong = long run ;)
<7> So palestine is officially a terrorist state then now?
<4> right, ideas are all fine and well, but better when they're based on reality.
<2> and the israelis dont get barbaric?
<7> so why dont we just take them out if they are a terrorist state
<5> AdM|n: No, since Palestine isn't a state of any kind yet.
<4> td: not to that extent, or with that consistency
<3> td, Yes they do sometimes.
<4> and no more than any civilized state would in their situation
<4> vs. like, say, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, or Algeria
<3> So people should denounce barbarism whether its palestinians or Israel.
<7> yeah its a bunch of ignorant sub humans, who dont have any claim to the land of Israel, since Jews have been there for thousands of years before Islam was ever a religion
<5> AdM|n: And once they are made a state, they'll be too busy slaughtering each other in bloody civil war to engage in much terrorism, which is why Israel needs to expedite the process of Palestinian statehood.
<2> What about the palestinian situation?, Europe calls em up in 1947 and is like, hey guys, we are sending some jews down :)
<4> which have, individually, killed far more civilias than Israel has
<1> I dunno, wen was the last time you heard about an israeli blowing up a bus full of Palestinians?
<3> Comparison is irrelevant, every action has to be judged on the basis of that action.
<4> td: no, that wasn't the situaiton
<4> read about Lebanon and the creation of Israel
<4> similar inceptions
<4> with similar problematic results
<3> 3 acts of barbarism by israel is 3 acts even if there have been 15 by Palestinians.. Both should be condemned.
<4> and in some senses, similar to the imposed nation-states post-WWI generally in the Mideast
<4> more like 1:100
<1> td- when was the last time you heard about an israeli blowing up a bus full of Palestinians? They do things which they shouldn't sometimes; but not nearly so dispicable as the Pals
<1> paticularly Hamas
<7> Palestine has no claim on that land, it was jewish land thousands of years ago
<4> never mind the fact that Israel is a democracy, with women's rights, a free press, a free market, the rule of law
<7> so if a bum kicks me out of my home, its still my home
<7> and ill take it back
<1> AdM|n- we should return that land to the proto-indeo-europeans! They owned it before anyone!
<1> :P
<3> Timur, Thats right never mind.. It still doesnt excuse barbarism.
<4> FT: right, it doesnt excuse it, but one must use proportionality
<4> or the criticism is meaningless
<3> or the ex IDF ***asination organization whose goals were to murder palestinians.. Thankfully the Israeli Government busted them, and arrested them.
<4> right
<1> AdM|n- historical claim arguments are invalid
<5> I'm curious as to what egregious acts of barbarism the Israelis have committed during the current intifada.
<2> Timur, can you tell me again how the sabra and shatila m***acres had nothing to do with the Israelis
<7> indians deserved to have their land taken over because they were so violent and not willing to share their vast amounts of land wealth
<4> vs. the Palestinian penchant for basically being composed of competing mafias, and largely tribally and town based
<3> Timur, Proportionality is ok but you also need to acknowlege barbarism regardless of where it comes from including the USA.
<2> even though Ariel SHaron was found to be personally responsible
<8> hi all :)
<8> FreeTrade :)
<4> td: I can, but that's irrelevant.
<3> Hey Comet! :)
<8> FreeTrade did you see my msg ?
<4> CB, hey
<7> KoBushi how the hell is the fact that muslims out of spite against jews, took over their land, erected holy sites on the land of the jews not relevant
<3> America has a very sinful past, but we have come a long ways to become the major force for good in the world... But by god yes we did horrific things in our history.
<8> hi timur :)
<5> Ah, yes, here we go. The dredging up of events the Israelis committed fifty years ago to justify what the Palestinians did yesterday. That's how it seems to work with the apologists.
<3> I like the term sin as a secular term. It just fits better than any other word.
<2> 23 years ago isnt that long
<1> AdM|n- because 1: those who did that are dead now
<4> Pickle: or ignoring the proportion, or the systemic context, or the degree
<5> It's a lot longer than the current intifada, which is the only relevant time frame.
<1> AdM|n- and 2: those who formed the nations (the UN) in the ME now, did not allow them any say in the matter
<8> FreeTrade .. did you fix that ban on gopp?
<4> the Peel Commission did
<2> so thousands of people being m***acred 23yrs ago has no bearing on todays current situation?
<3> History is history and its all justifiable in debate to support an argument.
<5> td: It in no way justifies what the Palestinians are doing now, no.
<7> so it illegal because some superficial insignificant and powerless organization existsed when the jews took back THEIR holy land from the savages who stole it from them in the first place?
<1> AdM|n- 3: there is almost always SOMEONE who lived on a piece of land prior to the current inhabitants... where does the historical rights progression end? Should we return Europe to the ownership of the Roman Empire? Perhaps we should restore the Ottoman empire?
<2> Im not saying it justifies it.
<7> thats doesnt p*** any type of simple logic test
<5> It has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
<3> For example how I explained Americas sins, Slavery, Exploitation of Chinese Labor when the railroads were being built, the INdians, and of course the Japanese internment during ww2
<4> td: because of relative proportion, degree, extent, and systemic context.
<5> It is in no way a valid parallel.
<4> look what happened after that
<1> AdM|n- maybe we sould give 3/4 of he world back to Mongolia an restore the rule of the Khans?
<3> Sure it does.
<4> 100,000 Israelis protested in Tel Aviv
<5> It is simple apologism.
<2> Israelis Kill Palestianians, Palestinians Kill Israelis, rinse and repeat
<4> look what happens when 9/11 occurs
<4> Palestinians cheering
<4> see
<4> there's a difference.
<9> Pickle: Its always back and forth. Group A and B fight. The fight ends. Group B does something to group A, Group A does something to group B, ad nauseum.
<10> **** Cheney accidentally shot and injured a man during a weekend quail hunting trip in Texas, his spokeswoman said Sunday.
<2> Some palestinians cheering.
<1> AdM|n- the Egyptians ruled the region prior to the jews and the pals, let's just give it all back to a Pharoh
<7> so if i come to your house, a place you and your family have had for thousands of years, the most sacred place in the world to you, its ok since the UN didnt exist?
<4> lots of them.
<2> some
<10> Harry Whittington, 78, was "alert and doing fine" after Cheney sprayed him with shotgun pellets on Saturday while the two were hunting at the Armstrong Ranch in south Texas, said property owner Katharine Armstrong.
<10> hehe...
<4> Astro: the two groups, however, are not equivalent.
<3> Timur a small majority
<3> And Im sure some Israel smiled too.
<4> FT: enuogh
<1> AdM|n- hell, we can restore the middle east as part of the roman empire too!!
<4> no, it didn't
<3> Thinking ahh, This will help us against the arabs.
<9> Free: Can you add, "... Quail not so lucky" to the topic? :P
<7> the only reasons muslims took israel in the first place was because of their genocidal hatred for jews
<1> AdM|n- that would be just right?
<3> Astro haha
<4> it was horrified, because it has had to deal with that for 50 years plus.
<2> haha.. Timur knows all when it comes to Israel
<7> they have no claim on that land
<5> If a group of Amerinds blew up up a bus in San Francisco, we would not allude back to the indian wars 100 years ago for an explaination of their actions. We would simply condemn the act of barbarism on its face. Yet when Palestinians blow up a bus in Tel Aviv, all of a sudden the wars of 30 years ago are relevant justification.
<10> i heard cheney thought the quail had WMD info
<5> Or equivocation.
<4> I know a lot, because I've studied it for 20= years.
<4> 20+ rather
<1> AdM|n- the romans owned Israel WAY before the muslims we should give it bac to the Romans shouldn't we?
<3> Yeah right, YOU have a rightwing in Israel which cares about nothing and noone but Israelis and Jews.
<9> No one is saying they justify them, Pickle.
<10> so he decided to preemptively strike whittington
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