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Comments:
<0> nobody in the white house has denied any part of the story
<1> carnivore is vastly outdated
<2> Lupine thats my point, Somerset Maughn a very astute psychiatrist before a novelist I know would never want to be thought of as gay, he wants to be thought of as the man who wrote "On Human Bondage" and "The Razors edge" and the Short story and movie "Rain"
<1> and not in use in a while
<3> bmc: john kerry hasn't denied that he is the offspring of an illicite love triangle between the Berkoks and the emprorar of ZXorg
<2> To me I am not against gay history in textbooks, but define gay history first.
<4> Well, I think it's pointless actually
<2> Is it going to people like somerset ? Or will it be So and so helped p*** a bill which gave gays some of the same rights married people have regarding x,y,z.. They the subject matter is gay and I have no problem with it.
<4> Historically, homo***uals generally kept their orientation very private
<3> i think it is insulting to all those notable people who are gay
<2> But the tendency in historical revisionism is to go to far tot he other extreme.
<2> Katey, I agree.
<4> There isn't a long history of gays being shut out of important achievements
<2> Historically they have and alot of them still do.
<4> Whereas there is such a history for blacks in the US.
<2> Do you know often my gay clients and friends mention their homo***uality. ? Hardly ever.
<5> gay history = among other things famous people in history who were gay. if you would have mentioned that they were black, and would be accused of having some sort of agenda if you left that out, then you should mention that they are gay for the same reasons.
<4> hence the push to try to have more of their achievements recognized
<3> Well, there has been this movement to try to claim gays were treated like black slaves, etc
<2> One Client recently said I would like to rebuild such and such in Harry and my bedroom.
<2> Thats as close as it gets.
<2> and two lesbian friends of mine never mentioned it, and they moved out of Berkeley because its too leftwing, one of whom is now a very good cop on the task force. The toughest unit in the polic force.
<3> FT: they ever ask you to install some 500+lb ceiling anchors for a "swing"?
<2> I really like her and her partner..
<4> I mean, for all we know, a few of the founding fathers were gay. But such a thing would have been kept quiet anyway.
<5> lupine probably has one of those 'swings' in his basement
<3> null: i live in florida, no basements
<2> A great police officer like my lesbian friends accomplishment is as a police officer, not as a homo***ual.
<2> She broke up a ring of pedophiles.
<4> FreeTrade, probably more noteworthy that she's a woman than that she's gay
<4> :)
<2> IM very proud of her being a friend of hers since before she was a cop and to see her advance so quickly in the police force because of the dedication of her work.
<2> And I dont think she would want it to be called Lesbian police work.
<2> In fact I am sure.
<3> FT: oh, btw.. I may have onsight viewing for the shuttle launch.. :-)
<2> I think its fair to say as a general statement on the TOPIC of homo***uality that plenty of gays have contributed a lot to society, they should be mentioned as either dead people or outed gays, noone should out gays who dont want to be.
<4> Null_Ptr, that's why he keeps the swing in the livingroom instead. :)
<5> katey i figured
<5> :P
<2> Katey, not likely most of them were married and some of them like Benjamin Franklin probably had 100 lovers (Women) but Your point in general is right, there are gays who have contributed a lot to advancement of humanity, and many fo them are already known as gay, and some are known as gay who were not, like Socrates and Alexander.
<6> all heresay
<4> FreeTrade, well, I would ***ume that if one were a gay man in the 19th century and wanted to succeed in public life, you'd get married anyway
<4> and keep your extra-curricular persuits very discrete
<6> especially with alexander and hephastion
<4> er...18th century rather
<6> oliver stone can choke on a fig for all i care.
<2> People shouldnt speculate on a persons ***uality in ancient history when there is no direct evidence of it. Did he have boys ? Probably, Many men did. It was a cultural thing. But it was also a cultural thing that the Macho men looked down on the males who were used in the more p***ive role as homo***uals in greek history.
<2> So in greek history it was ok to have a boy give you a BJ, but the boy was religated to the lower cl***es and to ill repute.
<4> so...they were like dogs humping eachother for dominance in the pack?
<4> :)
<2> Katey, really in some periods of history thats not far from the truth.
<2> Now in ancient history like in Sumaria they had strict laws about *** and adultary..
<6> the boys that got p***ed around during drunk orgys, hehe.
<2> These are the oldest civilizations we have written history of.
<2> The greeks also encouraged the athletes at the olympics to have gay *** if they had to have ***..
<2> Why ?
<2> Because of an open tolerant society ?
<2> No because they didnt want thier virgin daughters and members of the female society to lose virginity which was a huge scarlet letter.
<5> because women take more food
<5> they didnt want a bunch of women following their camp around
<5> when they were moving the army around
<2> A non virgin was damaged goods in Greece at the same time homo***uality was tolerated and almost encouraged.
<7> Its easier to keep virgin women around when youre banging other guys.
<2> Gays in ancient battles did well. But Alexander and most his men married persian women at the end of their campaign.
<2> They were not gay, Bi***ual? Possibly..
<2> Maybe even probably..
<6> look at the theban sacred band for instance
<7> I dont know why new textbooks are required for the teacher to just say "Oh and btw, he was poofter"
<2> But to make ***umptions from probably to "are" or "were" is dishonest intellectually..
<2> COS, see thats what I object to.
<4> Wasn't Ptolemy supposed to have been one of Alexander's lovers?
<2> Unless its a history of homo***uality
<3> CoS: spreading the gay agenda
<6> actually alexander got around pretty well. roxane and her mother sysgambis
<6> Katey-: NO
<2> Katey, We dont know and I have read two books by a world renowned scholar on Alexander, Professor Green.
<6> its hinted with hephastion and the persian court boy
<2> Nowhere in either book does he indicate that Alexander was gay, though Alexangers teacher aristotle, Probably was.
<2> Probably again.
<2> I am not saying he was, I am saying there are a lot of reasons to suspect Aristole was gay.
<4> Eh. It makes no difference to me either way
<6> well, his close relationship with hephastion isnt disputed
<4> if he was or wasn't, neither diminishes or enlarges his accomplishments in my view.
<6> after his death he cut all his hair, and didnt leave his tent for 10 days
<8> hola
<6> i dont know what that could indicate
<8> vasilli who? Bill Clinton?
<6> no, hephastion. alexanders "friend"
<2> he was definately metro***ual, His dress was impeccable, he liked lots of jewelery and flamboyant dress and there is other evidence, granted these are steretypical.. but a lot of gays relish in the sterotypical "gay Machoism or gay feminism" that many of them diplay or enjoy watching plays about.
<8> after he died he cut his own hair. should have taught my barber
<6> err switch that
<8> oh Al's catamite?
<2> Other gays are as masculine as any hetero, and are conservative as hell (Thinking of my old city Attorney/municipal judge)
<2> In my small town
<8> Free the ***ual thing sometimes gets overblown. I knew a lesbian once who was uber female
<8> the frills and lace sort
<2> So my position again is not to discriminate against gays, but not to talk about their contributions to society as being gay or lesbian, now obviously a biography of them if they are dead or they have outed themselves should mention they were gay.
<8> it was in college and she...was experimenting.. :) I really liked that gal, pity
<2> Pilgrim lipstick lesbians, another stereotype which does exist.
<6> well oliver stone simply wanted to create a sense of controversy, nothing more.
<2> if you want proof see howard sterns for a month.
<8> is that what they are called?
<3> i swear, it's almost like it is a "fad" now among young women to at least act like lesbians in public
<4> both the "butch" stereotype and the "femme" stereotype exist in reality
<2> Thats my point, controvery only promotes more discrimination and backlash. Honor gays yes, for their accomplishments, in their biogrphies it should be mentioned that they were gay..
<8> well this lady was one heluva a woamn, but she prefered girls.
<6> i wonder what ever happoened to those lawsuits filed by the greek lawyers ?
<2> But historical text books for high school students usually gloss over the general contributions of men and women and not thier biography. at least not in depth.
<8> yeah, who knew that Louis XVI was a accomplished finished carpenter
<2> Katey, I agree with you.. what stereotypes which exist that are not true, is that homo***uals are likely to molest your children.. No more so than hetero***uals.
<8> he made end tables and chairs. some are in collections to this day
<2> That they are dangerous, demented, and all the other negative stereotypes.
<4> FreeTrade, well, statistically, less so actually
<2> My experience is they are like all of us, with the one exception which is that they are not attracted ***ually to the opposite ***.
<4> FreeTrade, but I take your point
<3> well, one would have to look at the raw data. Many do not consider a man molesting a boy, to be homo***ual/bi***ual
<8> the number of gays of either (all?) gender numbers less then 10% of the population
<2> Lupine, I do, but a lot more married men with wives molest boys than do gay men who are out.
<2> But sure the act of a man molesting a boy is a homo***ual act.
<2> But a homo***ual act does not make one homoseuxal.
<3> FT: sure.. but my point is, you have to be careful on stats
<3> I would say that would make them bi***ual
<2> Homo***uality is a orientation
<8> I used to know a lot of people in the gay/lesbain community around my college. Some swung both ways
<3> pilgrim was adept at getting a gay man to turn straight again
<2> Some people are just perverts, they may be hetero***ual but like ****ing the sheep and the little boys and girls occ***ionally to, such ***ual predators are in their own cl***.
<2> Speaking of which don't you people agree with me that the courts should start cracking down hard on these female ***ual molestors who are often educators ?
<8> I rented an apartment in the student ghetto at one point. it was cheap. turns out the predominant people in the apartment were lesbians and the place had that rep. NO BODY TOLD ME!
<3> In back-to-back moves this week, the Pentagon began exploring ways to lend support at the southern border, while the House on Thursday voted to allow the Homeland Security Department in limited cases to use soldiers in that region.
<4> I think a pedophile's interest in a particular gender of child has more to do with his/her pathology as a pedophile than their ***ual orientation
<2> IM sick of hearing case after case of teachers having *** with their boys and getting off scott free.
<8> so I sort of lived the threes company life for a time
<3> FT: to me, it is a clear violation of equal production under the law
<9> pilgrim`, and you loved it
<3> katey;s ure, but they are still gay/bi***ual.. but many would put that under the heading of "hetero***ual" for the stats
<8> Free used to be: 20-30 guy *** with teen gal= statutory. 20-30 gal *** with teen guy = education
<2> Lupine absolutely, its also a hypocrisy of feminists who are not outraged (Some feminists are outranged) but the ones who arent are pure hypocrites.
<2> they wanted equal justice under the law but htey are getting bimbo justice, with little or no time served.
<8> becasue girls and boys ARE NOT THE SAME
<4> Lupine, I agree that a man molesting a boy is homo***ual act. But I'm with FreeTrade on the issue of orientation.
<3> Thursday's House vote allowed Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to ***ign military personnel under certain circumstances to help the Homeland Security Department with border security. The vote was 252-171, and the provision was added to a larger military measure.
<2> Pilgrim its inexcusable when a women in power over a young man has *** with him.
<9> FreeTrade, men in general can't consider this a crime :-)
<4> if a pedophile's adult *** life is with someone of the opposite gender, I would call them hetero***ual.
<8> a teen girl, back when and still today if you peel the lid off, who is virgo intact has a marrige market edge over her experienced sister
<3> katey: i would call them bi***ual
<4> Lupine, I wouldn't consider them bi***ual unless they also had *** with adult men.
<8> Free I agree, but it is not the same as the other way around.
<8> it just isn't
<4> or ***ually mature men, I should say
<3> katey: well, i see nothing in the definition of hetero/homo***uality of age
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