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Comments:
<0> Kaliuna: the world is full of murderous situations. Mugabe. Rwanda. Sudan. and so on...and we just happen to pick Iraq, which was a geopolitical pain in the put, but under containement.
<1> The opposite of a neocon is a paleocon, which these two terms when invented, lets just say economic liberals were neo cons, and Pat Buchanan and his isolationist protectionists are the paleocons.
<1> Hey ++C, WOULD You prefer the PALEO Cons ?
<1> Seriously
<2> ++C -- location location location....
<3> beeperz: By an odd coincidence, all of those societies were backwards for their time, and eventually conquered.
<1> People toss around the term neo-con and dont know what it means.
<0> FT: OK, whatever Bill Kristol, Douglas Feith, etc. were, it was them I refer to. Irrespective of whether they are the "real" neocons, or paleocons, or neoliths, or neandra...oh, you get the point.
<4> Get a Room You!
<5> its a term thats open to debate about its meaning
<0> Kaliuna: indeed.
<1> The term neo-con began in debates between conservatives which I was involved in about 25 years ago.
<1> Pat Buchanan declared himself a paleo-con and didnt like the neo-cons taking over the party, Neocons are true economic liberals.
<6> i just feel its arrogant for us to ideologically export our brand of representitive democratic capitalism across the world saying it is better for everyone. I think states should determine their own systems of government internally.
<2> hi tortus
<7> evening
<1> they believe in free trade and free economies and they believe in involving themselves in the world when its in our interest to do so.
<1> 911 wasnt just an interest it was an act of war against the USA>
<3> beeperz: The states we've exported it to seem to appreciate the gesture.
<0> FT: um...so far, your definition of "neocon" includes Jimmy Carter.
<1> I wish people who use the term neo-con understoods its etymology like I do.
<6> i dont think the iraqis are all that grateful
<0> FT: I think we need to narrow it down a bit ;=)
<3> The Japanese do not resent their current representative form of government, nor do the Afghanis or even Iraqis.
<8> the reason why we have a Constitution is because a nation with Liberty is not the natural tendency of man. Without a Constitution, a free nation will, perhaps always, drift to dictatorship
<2> beeperz well we can agree to your first three words --
<3> The East Timorese fought long and hard for a western-style democracy.
<6> kal: if thats so then why do they want the US to leave?
<9> It's just false to say Iraq was "under containment."
<3> And as I recall, the left supported their struggle.
<3> Ditto for the Burmese.
<2> beeperz -- do they?
<6> yes
<6> look at the polling
<9> The sanctions regime over Iraq was under constant attack by China, France, and Russia, and weakening---despite Iraq's noncompliance.
<10> I remember this troll
<2> beeperz - oh no not another IDIOT poll bit of crap
<8> when people move to a new area, and govt hasn't really been established yet, or after a revolution, is when you need to write a good constitution
<11> they want us to leave, yes.. but they do not want us to leave NOW
<8> very soon after
<10> we want to leave too
<1> Being a hard core member of the conservative (small l libertarian) faction I was following the developments of factions in the conservative or Repubica Party very closely as they debated back and forth mainly through a number of magazines, like the national Review, Policy Review, American Spectator, and I cant remember the name of this paleo-con rag.
<6> ok, kal, when you find a better way then polling to solict public opinion then you let me know
<6> until then i'll look at polls
<9> beeperz, we don't export our own brand of representative democratic capitalism, though for most of the world it would be an improvement if we did.
<0> DStewart: Saddam was a royal pain in the ***, and tyrranical meglomaniac. But he didn't have WMD after Gulf War I.
<3> The Iraqis have had three chances to either vote out the democrats, or ignore the elections entirely. They have done neither, all three times, despite the dangers of participation in the democratic process.
<1> I read all of them religiously cover to cover during this period. (Before i had a life) :)
<4> Freetrade, dot forget National Lampoon and *** to ***ty...
<1> ++C, NO Jimy Carter was no economic liberal in the international definition
<6> ds: it's uncertain if it were a good thing, it may be, it may not be
<3> It can no longer be disputed that the vast majority of Iraqis have embraced democracy.
<10> ++C: actually Saddam did have WMD after Gulf War 1. It was documented by Saddam himself and the UN
<2> ++C actually he did -- some of which were destroyed under watchful eyes
<1> An international economic liberal is a free trade free market supply side, low tax conservative.
<8> Iraqis will be alright
<6> will they be?
<9> And "nations" don't have a right to choose their own systems of government internally if that "choice" is the imposition of tyranny. If you mean that the people have a right to sovereignty, that would be correct---but then, that would mean democratic republican government and capitalistic economic system.
<11> the people of Iraq have been willing to die just to vote, are you?
<6> sure
<1> A student of Friedman and Whats his name. The guy that wrote the book on supply side.
<6> but im not the issue here
<8> FT, don't you feel lucky you don't live in Venezuela? :)
<12> SAN FRANCISCO, California (CNN) -- An explosive device was found in a Starbucks coffee shop in central San Francisco on Monday.
<9> beeperz, no, it would be a good thing for most countries.
<1> Airbuster, They would probably kill me in Venezuela, You are right.
<11> so you would go vote, under the threat of bombs and sucide bombers?
<8> hehe
<1> I am a very strong Capitalist.
<12> Sadly the most obvious target of that bomb seems to be Starbucks and not people
<12> or is it just me?
<12> haha
<11> heh, less than 50% of americans vote now
<6> ds: would it be a good thing for china?
<1> For the good of all people.
<9> It's not as if it's a mystery whether popular sovereignty, republican government, and capitalism are superior to statist governments.
<9> beeperz, yes, it would.
<1> Neo-con to the left is a word since Bush was elected.
<2> L0c0 difficult to say without knowing more...
<1> To me it was a term we brought into existance 25 or so years ago.
<1> We conservatives
<6> ds: but what about the problems of feeding a billion people? what about the labor conditions now which are favorable to the us-chinese trade relations?
<12> Kaliuna: hehe...somebody was pissy b/c his grande double iced mochachino didn't have enough whipped cream on it
<9> beeperz, I get the feeling that tyranny is okay---as long as you don't live where it is.
<0> US-Male: yes, up through the Gulf War saddam did have some capability, which we forced him to let be destroyed. But Saddam didn't want to let his surrounding regional neighbors think he had truly gone all limp-**** about WMD. Meglomaniacal tyrants have to keep up appearances of having wicked capabilities tucked away, to help insure they don't get overthrown
<8> kali, so how goesit tonight?
<11> neocon is supposed to be an insult.. and used instead of neo nazi...
<1> I am not having delusions of grandeur but i was a small part of this debate and movement.
<10> most Democrats think neocon means "Republican"
<2> L0c0 -- heehe --
<1> Very small.
<9> beeperz, a billion people only get fed consistently when the feeding portion of the economy is capitalist.
<1> Like a grain sand small But there nonetheless :)
<10> ++C: not "up through". Afterwards.
<2> Air -- been crazy monday -- tonight is no different :)
<8> FT, I have delusions of grandeur fairly often
<8> manic mondays
<6> ds: i'm not supporting tyranny per se, i'm saying that if the people wish to oppose the tyrant they should stand up and do so.
<1> It should be illegal for leftists to use the term neo-con without a study of its etymology.
<9> beeperz, do you think that collectivized agriculture produced enough food for China? How about for the Soviet Union?
<1> And its opposite.
<2> Air -- too much so at times...
<9> beeperz, gosh, that wasn't at all what you were saying.
<10> Saddam admiited having X # of WMD, and properly destroyed less than "X" under the UN's supervision, then he waffled and hid and played games about the remainder
<1> the opposite of a neo-con is embodied in Pat Buchanan.
<1> Is that who leftists support ?
<9> Beeperz, it would be nice if people could do that, and it's obviously heroic when they do.
<11> how about you think of the people of Iraq, like battered women, they want to leave but are to afraid to leave
<1> Pat Buchanan >?
<8> hmm
<9> Sometimes they may need help---and sometimes we can help them.
<12> Kaliuna: being in SF...wonder if the fact that the city has a large gay community had anything to do w/ it....interesting target though. popular/busy place. scary stuff man
<6> yes, but, we had a chance to help them, and we didn't in 91. that caused the iraqis to resent us.
<11> they have no self confidence, and they are scared for their life if they stand up... so they cower and pray that make it thur the next day
<12> FreeTrade: I sorta like Pat Buchanan. We share the same views on immigration, but that's about it. But he seems like a good man
<0> JanetB: I don't think "neocon" is truly any sort of insult. But they are a variety of hard-core utopian ideologues, and utopian ideologies usually lead eventually to disapointment at the hands of practical realities and human nature
<8> beeper, major blunder on the elder Bush's part
<2> L0c0 -- well if it was a high traffic location -- and on a timer -- hmmm
<6> agreed
<9> Saddam did have WMD after Gulf War I. The UN inspection teams spent several years destroying WMDs, both weapons and materials for weapons, including chemi and biologicals.
<12> he seems like a fair man. though I like Bob Dole more hehe
<11> ++.. oh I think it is truly ment to be an insult
<1> This has perturbed me since the war started and this convuluted use of the term neo-con has been bandied about as an epithet by leftists against freedom loving Capitalist rightists.
<6> sadaam had wmd's because rumsfeld had the recipt
<12> Kaliuna: scary scary stuff b/c I would think LA before SF
<9> beeperz, maybe they resented us: And at the same time---or serially, they wanted us to return and COMPLETE THE JOB.
<1> I dont have delusions of grandeur, I know what i give to this world by the time I die will just be a small amount of me.
<9> Neocons aren't even remotely utopian. Nor hard core.
<2> L0c0 -- any large city really in high or dense traffic area -- wonder ifother places also had same thing..?
<1> I will have influenced a few 100 people but thats all.
<1> DS, Right..
<13> Neocons are about as far from utopian as you can get
<13> They're hard core realists
<9> beeperz, wrong. Saddam had WMDs because China and Russia and Germany had the receipts.
<13> pragmatists, realpolitik types
<10> and the UN had an inventory
<2> DS and France
<6> we did give him some chemical and biological as well
<9> Kal, I don't know of any French role in Saddam's WMD
<10> the weapons were located, inventoried, cataloged, and scheduled for proper destruction
<9> beepers, read this carefully: NO WE DID NOT.
<12> Kaliuna: and really, a coffee shop in a metropolitan center...a person w/ say a backpack wouldn't exactly stick out much
<2> DS -- yup they are on the list... missile stuff
<1> In fact If you read Russel Kirks bood the "conscience of a conservative" he describes a conservative of any stripe as being someone whose first premise is accepting that man is flawed and always will be.
<10> the complete destruction never took place, only partial
<14> yeah the caps do it for me
<14> lol
<3> The political pragmatism of "neoconservatives" is what scares the **** out of the left, in fact.
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