| |
| |
| |
|
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77
Comments:
<0> Pub: that's an artificial notion; there really is no, and never was, 'an Iraqi people' but several peoples in Iraq, the 3 major groups among them.
<1> Timur, its much more restrained than most people could bare.
<2> If it weren't for the sunnis, would the Kurds and the Shi'ites be able to form a stable Iraq?
<1> No there has always been an iraqi people,
<1> as well as a sunni and a shia and a kurd
<3> Timur: so one of these groups, the sunni, are going to be entirely against this?
<0> e-Hernick: well, 'too' aggressive is subjective; it's an inherently unstable and dangerous situation. That's really all I'm saying.
<4> exactly Timur---the people are more loyal to those ethnic groups than any false notion of imposed nationhood by the Brits after the fall of the Ottomans.
<1> They all identify as Iraqis
<0> Pub: for the most part
<0> hans: right.
<1> Its like America
<0> Free: they primarily self-identify as members of their respective groups.
<1> I am an american but I am a californian too, and an atheist, but I am not a good example I am a mutt
<0> who cares what your background is? America isn't Iraq
<3> People are people. Democracy has the tendency to override prejudice, regime dominance, amd irrational fighting
<1> But its like Americans who are catholic and jewish and protestant, islamic and buddhist and hindu
<0> America's not even remotely comparable to Iraq
<5> FreeMrkts: But what the government isn't doing--because there is no functional government yet--is officially sanctioning the militias as part of the security force. Frankly I think that they should. It would put some restraint on what those militias are doing, while tapping into what are probably the people most motivated to actually bring security to the country.
<1> we all identify as americans.
<0> no, it's not like that at all.
<6> If Israel can have a large pop of arabs then the shia can have sunnis
<1> But they also identify in their groups.
<1> I dont identify with any group.
<0> yes, but they don't all identify as Iraqis, nor is the Iraqi 'identity', so-called, comparable to an American one
<0> so what ?
<0> we're speaking of Iraq
<3> Timur: some of them do
<1> My culture, thank god has been destroyed
<0> Pub: few
<1> I am a free american.
<3> one opinion matters in a democracy
<3> heh
<0> ok, so now it comes back to 'I'm a mutt, American' rather than 'wow, Iraq has some major issues'
<4> Not at all, there's no tradition of any democratic elected govt in that part of the world (except Israel). Never mind religious toleration. American culture has both for over 100s of years. Iraq notions of national ID aren't remotely like American's.
<0> hans: exactly
<3> Major issues yes, but no democracy will work if it is based upon restraining one group because they don't feel like cooperating
<5> The biggest problem the west has in dealing with arab states is understanding that they are dealing with societies that operate not on state and national levels, but rather clan and tribal levels, and that includes the organization of militias.
<0> the comparison is specious and misleading and ill-informed and without meaning
<1> Timur no its just like you are a Jewish American, Fiercly both. And Muhamad is an Arab American who is fiercly both. I am a ****ing mutt who is only american with no culture thank god.
<0> Pickle: right
<0> Free: I thought we were speaking of Iraqi identity, not American
<0> at least, I was.
<2> Publius: so, you're saying that we need to find a final solution to the sunni problem, that will calm them down for good?
<3> I'm not going to insult the Iraqi people, whatever their sect, by ***uming they are not comparable to Americans
<3> heh
<0> it has nothing to do then with your identity or mine as Americans
<3> e-hernick: wtf
<3> lol
<0> it'd be nice if a single issue could be discussed at a time
<6> The sunni problem is like the democrat problem--lack of power
<6> they beleive in different caliphs but that is not the prob
<1> Timur of course it does
<1> Your bias is based on who you are
<3> it would be nice if America could have enjoyed its happy go lucky life before 9/11
<3> **** happens
<1> what you identify with
<3> heh
<5> What we need to do is differentiate those tribes that are on our side with those that are not, and work to eradicate the latter as functional groups--just like the British did with the Scots.
<5> It worked.
<0> no, my bias has.. nothing to do with how Iraqis identify themselves
<0> nothing.. whatsoever.
<3> progessivism is a rather effective tool in democracy
<0> it's two totally separate and unrelated issues.
<3> instead of hate and violent protest
<1> Timur it has to do with your view of the world
<2> My understanding of the Shi'ite/Sunni/Kurd split is that the Sunni used to rule over Iraq, but lived in oil-poor regions, and gained their wealth and power by controlling the flow of oil that came from the Shi'ite and Kurd regions - all the while severely oppressing the Kurds. Nowadays, the Kurds have backed off as much as they can, control their own oil and enjoy relatively high stability.
<0> my view of the world.. has nothing to do with Iraqis' views
<0> that's what I was discussing
<1> E-, Sunnis ruled not all a minority, because Saddam was an absolute dictator.
<2> Meanwhile, the Shi'ites have gained power, and they're sitting on the oil - while the sunnis no longer have any power, nor do they have any oil - and they still want the oil money.
<0> regardless of my views, they have their views
<1> Tikriti's ruled if you want to get specific
<5> Kurds are not arabs--they identify strongly as a nation. That's why we interact most successfully with them.
<1> baghdad had a lot of inter marraige between shia an sunni.
<0> I could exist with any views, or not exist at all, and that has zero impact on Iraqis' views
<1> And other groups
<2> Still, the Sunnis were army and government and police leaders.
<1> The problem is they all claim Iraq, They dont want it split they made their voice known when they voted.
<2> The Ba'ath Party was a mostly sunni organisatoin
<2> they don't want it to split because they want the oil
<1> But just as I could never identify 100% as a georgian
<2> and their regions don't hav eoil
<1> I still feel apart of the same great nation.
<5> FreeMrkts: And the best course of action is to give rival tribes the ability to, frankly, eradicate the Tikritis as a functional group.
<7> hey
<6> oil money is a national ***et and not an issue the issue is the sunnis being out of power which makes people nutty after they become used to having it--ask a democrat
<0> sheesh
<7> FreeMrtks: thats why America is so grat and why Canada ****s so bad
<0> time to learn how to separate the message from the messenger
<1> Ehernick, they were hand picked by Saddam, Most sunnis feared him.
<1> And there were other religions in the bath party, Tariq aziz is a christian.
<2> FreeMrkts: they might have feared him, but the Sunni elites reaped the benefits of Saddamism
<1> He was pratically saddamns #2
<5> There's no such group in Iraq as "Sunnis".
<0> most Iraqis in general feared him, but unlike Sunnis, the Kurds for example had little gain and much loss from Saddam's rule
<0> Pickle: Sunni Arabs
<0> 20%
<0> that's a group
<5> There are various tribes that adhere to Sunni Islam, but the unit of division is the tribe, not the religious affiliation.
<2> FreeMrkts: like the mafia hires jews as consiglieres.. It's common for organisations to hire an "outsider" to be a close advisor
<1> e-hernick to a large degree yes and especially since the iran iraq war and the gulf war in 93
<0> the tribes are united by religious ideologies and cultural linkages
<3> groups are groups but in the end they are still Iraqis. They will take to this because it will be the only way to survive
<6> sunnis will become used to being a minority if they are treated fairly
<3> this happens over and over agian
<1> Ehernicm, its not like the mafia
<5> Some tribes want to kill every single member of the Tikritis, including Sunni tribes.
<0> the Sunnis in Iraq are linked to Sunnis elsewhere; the Shi'a Arabs to Iran
<1> Saddam wasnt even a practicing muslim
<2> FreeMrkts: I'm not saying it's like the mafia
<1> He faked it
<0> well, getting into Saddam's religious belief systems seems a strange pursuit
<2> FreeMrkts: I'm just saying that having a close advisor with a different viewpoint is a common thing within organisations
<2> FreeMrkts: so it doesn't surprise me that Saddam had a christian advisor
<8> I don't think the US should involve itself in Iraq's identity crisis.. they should fix what they ****ed up and leave.
<6> Timur--that is overated and they are not tribes they are religous affiliations based ona split that occurred long ago having to do with which caliph was worshipped
<5> Timur: Only very loosely. Tribes may unite against a common foe, but more commonly they fight amongst themselves, either overtly or within the political system, for supremacy.
<0> Pickle: they can and do unite against common foes, viz. Sunni vs Shi'a
<5> And as we've seen, the Sunni authorities at Al-Azhar have very limited ability to command their fellow Sunnis in Iraq.
<0> but of course, there are internal divisions as well
<6> sunnis and shiites are NOT tribes!
<0> Pickle: right, as the Shi'a clerics have limits vis-a-vis their population as well
<1> True, In Israel certain tribes have always fought against the govenrment whichever government was in power. The problem though is this is universal in mankind.
<0> no, they're religious groupings comprising different tribes
<1> There is always an advisary it any society
<1> in any society
<0> tribes in Israel?
<1> Yes Tribes.
<0> maybe you mean ancient Israel
<1> The 12 tribes
<0> ah, ok
<1> thats why in the 80s you air lifted the ethipians out of ethiopia, because there were one tribe of Israel.
<1> Or was that the 70s ?
<0> I don't think any specific Israeli tribe always fought against the government
<0> 1980s
<1> I am old so my memory doesnt always work as well.
<0> huh?
<5> Timur: Yeah, and this is because as a general rule one perceives one's affiliation to clan and then tribe. If there is no common enemy to fight, they revert to fighting each other.
<1> The settlers wanted to kill sharon
<0> how does the airlift have anything to do with ancient Israel?
<0> Free: ok.. but that's not tribal
<1> They are very tribal in their behavior
<0> nor does it relate to the airlift
<1> We all are in fact
<0> no, they're actualy not
<5> Shi'ites are a bit more organized as a subfaith and less apt to fight amongst themselves.
<0> they have an ideology which is totally independent of any sense of tribe
<6> The bronfmans, the diamonds, the cohens, the goldbergs
<1> Its just that in countries which are as diluted such as mine there are a lot of people who are not tribalist.. BecUse of the mutt factor.
<9> damn everything works great in win2K
Return to
#politics
or
Go to some related
logs:
minnesota-chicago lineup nhl
meron socket 479
#nhl
excellent-servers config
rowid + sqlserv2005
BDA digital watch
#red
kabat bachir
#politics
#beginner
|
|