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Comments:
<0> You know when the house of Faud came to rule in Saudi Arabia, they wanted to modernize it and make it much more like the west, but the people revolted. About 10% or more of arabs are edcuaed in western institutions. But you are dealing with very old customs. And if the people will not be modenrized, you have no choice but to wait, provided they are killing innocent people
<0> They almost lost thier rule.
<1> The house of Faud, the mythical leaders of Faudi Charabia?
<0> The royal family and upper strata of arab societies are almost all educatedin the west
<2> FreeMrkts: More to the point, clan leaders revolted and their followers, well, followed.
<0> Yes people revolted..
<0> And so the royals had to back way off
<0> they did so to an extent which threatens them now.
<0> They should of still been inching them toward western coexistance, and the royals failed by not doing that.
<2> The point being that the power to command people lies with the leaders of tribes and clans. You don't rise to the position of tribal leader without the consent of clan leaders, and if you do you don't stay there without it. So, to effect change, the people you've got to influence are those clan leaders.
<0> You know a lot of things arabs dont like about the west I dont like, the drugs the hedonism, the pornographic tv shows which kids can watch,but they could have and many have learned to coexist with us.
<0> Its like dealing with old time american conservatives.
<0> They resisted change so much because the abuses of liberty the felt were unacceptable, Now i dont agree with the old conservatives, But I do understand them.
<2> Most Iraqis voted because most clan and family leaders said, "Go out and vote." Had most said, "do not vote", it wouldn't have happened. And such is the command power of those leaders that Iraqis risked extreme violence to vote.
<0> In my lifetime this country has grown so much more libertine.. And that isnt liberty.
<3> ok what else should I make with the salisbury steak, and mashed potatoes?
<0> Thats a side note but if you understand that kind of mind set you understand the more conservative people in most the arab world, Though morroco is a real exception
<0> Most americans vote because party leaders say go out and vote we really need your vote, See I just dont see that as much different its just different in name .
<4> Janet: I think you need a vegetable other than potato.
<0> We dont havetribes we have ideological factions.
<2> Geert Hofstede did extensive studies on various cultures around the world, in order to facilitate international business. He came up with five major factors that influence cultures around the world.
<2> One of them involves respect for authority. Extremely power-tolerant cultures will not "buck the system". They acknowledge an inherent right of authority figures to command. The other end of the spectrum is power-respecting cultures--those who heavily scrutinize leaders and obey only those who make persuasive arguments.
<0> I have always believed 2 things, that liberty in the USA must be extreme and that the people themselves must take responsibility for the damage of liberty. And I have also beleived never to judge another nation unless they threaten other people.. I never found it offensive that stealing in saudi arabia would cause you to lose a finger and maybe nexttime the hand and then the arm.
<2> Er, wait, actually, the labels are the other way around, I think.
<5> hmm..dishes done, laundry being done - I am productive
<0> This is a leftist world view actually though we now have reasons on the right to want the same thing only in a more limited fashion.
<2> Anyway, the United States and most Arab countries were found to be on diametrically opposite ends of this particular scale by Hofstede.
<0> The notion of fixng other cultures
<0> thats a leftist attitude
<6> freemrkts yeah i always said the iraq war was a liberal war
<6> ala woodrow wilson
<6> which is what's funny about watching people on the left and right with their staked out positions
<0> We are doing it in Iraq because of the war, same with afghanistan, Saudi Arabia which is still very backward is still one of our best allies in the middle east, Bush prefaced it by saying some democracies woul emerge quickyl, iraq and some in decades Saudi Arabia.
<6> all these people on the right who hated nation building and humanitarian intervention when clinton did it
<2> According to Hofstede's findings, US is power-tolerant, ie Americans do not believe in an inherent authority to command by virtue of position. Arab nations are extremely power-respecting, ie they see someone in a position of power as having an inherent right to be respected in what he demands.
<0> We wont push saudi Arabia other than to control their people who are likely to become terrorists.
<6> pickle sort of, in terms of public discourse you're right
<0> And they are doing that
<0> they have as much if not more to lose by not stopping this movement.
<6> but when public discourse can lead to you and your whole family being m***acred you might say things that you don't believe
<2> unfounded: Actually, this applies at lower levels, too... Hofstede's reasearch focusses on business dealings and relationship within the structures of Arab versus American firms.
<6> ok yeah i could buy that too actually
<2> Remember it was done to facilitate international business, not diplomatic discourse.
<6> american firms tend to be extremely merit-based
<6> no zaibatsu in america
<0> Arabs feign loyalty and fidelity for fear of recriminations. This is my anectdotal experience, i could be wrong but of arabs I have met from say saudi arabia and in other places, I have seen this, Peoplein Palestine feat Hamas as much as they fear the IDF
<0> This is why the stability of Middle east governments is very tenuous.
<6> freemrkts but hamas runs charities and schools in addition to street gangsa
<0> And why we must be very delicate
<6> freemrkts we're certainly not being delicate :)
<6> right now at least
<6> well since 2004 or so we've been trying
<0> unfounded, true, they do a lot of good for the palestinian people but they cancel it out by maintaining the status quo of war.
<6> with say march 2004 as a baseline
<6> yeah free i agree
<0> They also murder more palestinians than the IDF does.
<6> yeah for sure
<6> but you know, me and my brother against my cousin, me and my cousin against the outsider
<0> at least 30% or more of palestinians desperately want a peace settlement, all they have known is war.
<0> I say 30% conservatively
<0> Some polls are higher, but do you think they are willing to speak openly completely about thier feelings ?
<0> How do they know Hamas wont find out they want peace with Israelis and they be accused of collaborating with them
<0> 30% at least are out of the closet peace
<0> They want peace
<0> Right now hamas is the problem unless hamas agrees to stop the violence acknowlege Israels right to exist,
<6> yeah
<0> \Otherwise they will be out of power before a year.
<6> i prefer them in power as opposed to being outside of power though
<6> because of that pressure on them
<6> they never had any reason to cooperate before, they had strong domestic political incentives to stir up as much trouble as they could
<0> Yeah, We are seeing a new diplomacy which is unlike them.
<2> By the way, here are all of Geert Hofstede's cultural dimension scores: http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php
<6> until rantisi and y***in got killed
<6> man that guy looks just like saruman
<6> you know who i'm talking about sheikh y***in? you see his picture?
<0> But that often happend when people find themselves as true rulers.
<0> because then they have constituents.
<2> The relevant measure I've been talking about is referred to by that side as "Power Distance Index" (PDI)
<2> Basically, power respecting cultures do not tend to question the right of authority figures to hold and exert authority, whereas power tolerating cultures constantly question these things.
<6> yeah i'd say that power tolerating ness of the US is a good thing
<0> I think its more like in the USA we call out politicians pigs and reelect them, and in the Arab world when they no longer respect the politician they shoot him. Neither is ideal.
<6> haha
<6> yeah fair enough
<0> YES! A full back up!
<0> Now to burn them all to DVDs ;)
<5> Ich bin ein Berliner
<2> America's PDI is 40, and the lower that number the less inherent respect for power a culture has. Most European countries scored in the low teens. China and the Arab countries both scored identical, at 80.
<2> It's worth noting that Latin American countries also score high on this measure.
<6> yeah not for long though
<7> thats hilarious, considering how much power america has
<6> they've been throwing people out left and right recently
<7> they have all the power, but dont respect it
<6> that leftist guy might get elected
<6> allan5oh that's how you keep it sustainable, we don't let it consolidate and stagnate at the top
<2> unfounded: True, but go into a Latin American corporation and you will find very little questioning of the power hierarchy.
<6> i'll believe that
<6> yeah of course we always talk about western ideas and concepts being the reason that we're superior
<6> when actually it's because we were always the best at inflicting m***ive organized violence
<7> because of one thing... discipline
<7> look at any arab war... they lack discipline
<7> look at the us forces, extremely disciplined
<2> unfounded: Well, what Hofstede found was that there is not a unified "Western" idea about how much power should be respected. Latin American countries score high. America scores moderate. Western European nations score low, with some notable exceptions.
<6> sort of, i mean the troops all fight to the death, they're just not very well-organized or technologically equipped / savvy
<6> yeah western european nations need to quit being such babies
<2> France scored high, for example.
<2> German nations scored extremely low.
<6> that's pretty funny actually the stereotypes about them, you'd have htem the other way around
<6> do german governments fall more often than french?
<0> Damn i dont have enough DVDs, I have to burn about 20
<0> bbl.
<6> neither have had an early election in my recent memory
<6> but i'm young and just started paying attention a couple years ago
<7> we're supposed to get "refund cheques" from our crown corporation car insurance company
<7> we'll see what happens
<7> our insurance is cheap as it is
<7> http://www.mpi.mb.ca/english/fraud/TheftProofingAtRisk.html#
<7> haha... "most at risk" vehicles get free immobilizers, they were already practically handing them out
<7> half off.. and you finance the rest through them, BUT they give you $40 off per year, so that more then covers the financing
<7> now its totally free
<7> hello communism
<2> I don't know what Manitoba's insurance crown is like, but SGI are the biggest ****ing crooks on the face of the earth.
<8> pickle--do they have low low rates but no intention of ever paying a claim?
<1> How can you not like SGI?
<8> are you referring to home or car?
<2> Alton: Yes, and worse, they control the drivers' and vehicle licensing system as well as being the insurance monopoly.
<1> SGI is great! A little expensive, but very good still.
<8> I have geico and they have been good
<2> Which means they see those things as moneymaking tools.
<2> I've seen people failed five times by SGI for their drivers' license, each time on some minor technicality that was obviously just there to make them pay another testing fee again.
<8> that sounds like something I want to stay clear of
<2> As a vehicle appraiser, my grandfather made a living taking SGI to court when they tried to lowball people on their writeoff claims.
<8> pickle--is that the way they are in every state they are in or just where they get away with it?
<2> Alton: SGI is the government insurance monopoly for one province, Saskatchewan. They also are the ones who give out drivers' licenses and license plates for cars.
<8> oh
<8> I was thinking US so it seemed bizarre
<8> competition is very important and people only see that when it is gone
<2> I was recently informed I'd be charged $325 for my license renewal next year. Why? Because of two "failure to stop" tickets I got in another province five years ago, combined with the fact that I dented my car recently pulling out of my own garage. Apparently that makes me an "unsafe driver" worthy of a $325 fine.
<2> ****ing extortionists.
<8> Yeah--with any company if you have a dent your better of forgetting it
<8> you have it fixed they overcharge and the insurance pays but they will get that money or some other company will and in the long run you end up paying for it more than once.
<2> Well, I don't mind paying a higher insurance premium for my claim--but this is just to renew my freakin' driver license.
<8> Yeah that is extortion
<8> just like u said
<9> can someone give me a definition of "immigration rights" ?
<8> companies here run a scam where they say if they declare a car a total they keep the car and then have you sign it over to them which most people will do to get the check but if it isn't in your policy they have no right to the car. You have to call the insurance commisioner and or threaten to sue to get the money without signing over the car.
<10> there isnt a single definition i dont think
<10> it would be depending on what rights a particular country gives immigrants
<10> heh?
<8> MudFlip--I don't know but I do know that by law once they are on American soil they have constitutional rights.
<9> no one has a "right" to immigrate to the USA
<8> perhaps the father of an anchor baby?
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