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Comments:
<0> Timur, in the past, israeli's often called for revenge without desire for precision
<1> im pointing out the blatant lack of moral clarity here
<2> whats your point
<0> emotion ruled the day
<1> ppl compare terrorists to freedom fighters
<3> Linus-, when was that? Who made that call?
<1> blame suicide bombings on poverty, etc
<4> Linus: I'm talking about what was and is done, not what's called for by some
<1> the terrorists truly hate us
<1> but we don't truly hate them
<1> yet
<5> Johnny Cash - Folsom Prison Blues.mp3
<3> Another google session
<3> Linus-, when was that? Who made that call?
<1> that could change
<0> politicians who wanted to survive followed acted upon public outcry too often
<4> thebarry: imagine the effect on the US psyche of another 9/11 or worse
<2> not all terrorist are morally equivalent
<0> -followed
<1> and if it did the results for the mideast would be catastrophic
<4> deku: perhaps not, but they're basically all evil to degrees
<2> yes
<1> timur imagine how much blood americans would demand if a us city went up
<4> in the case of the Palestinian terrorists, particularly so.
<4> thebarry: yeah, exactly
<1> that's what we are trying to avoid here
<4> there'd be rallies to nuke an Arab capital or some such
<0> i donmt see how this has evolved into a moral equivalency conversation of terrorists vs israeli govt actions
<1> mecca would be over
<1> so much for alah
<0> all I'm saying is that israel seems to have moved away from the strike back immediately actions that they once followed
<1> if alah existed he wouldnt let a baloon go up over mecca would he?
<4> Linus: because you were being pretty selective in describing Israel's 'wild eyed' response to suicide bombings whose purpose and result was to kill the maximum # of civilians
<0> and have become more discerning, not bowing to public emotional outcries
<4> Linus: it's more effective now, because of targeted ******inations and the wall to one extent, and to an ***umed level of intelligence sharing between Arabs-Palestinians-Israelis on the other - and intel services in the West
<6> Could I interest any of you fellas in taking a very brief 10-questions survey regarding the President? It's for a cl***, and I would greatly appreciate it.
<0> and israel's realization that reactions like those taken in jenin were in the long run detrimental to its own security
<4> no, they weren't.
<4> they were a good and effective response to a long and bloody string of suicide bombings that should have been responded to each time in a similarly direct fashion.
<4> but what's more helpful, again, is the wall and getting the bad guys, and intel-sharing.
<0> when one loses innocent loved ones in a strike of vengeance, one tends to become more sympathetic to those that oppose the ones who killed your family members
<6> I apologize for interrupting, but if you get some spare time: http://freeonlinesurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?id=138756
<0> pk psychonat
<0> ok that is
<4> they can become more sympathetic, and may do so, but the results of that wouldn't help them.
<7> if palastinians were bombing say Syria, Syria would respond by indescriminately wiping out palastinians "en m***"
<6> Thanks.
<4> it'd just result in their being further brutalized and marginalized.
<0> yyz, probably true
<4> YYZ: right, like Syria did in Hama', and like Jordan did in 1971.
<4> Hama, 1980
<0> Timur, do you not see israel's tactics evolving away from bowing to public pressure for vengeance and more towards tactical and pinpointed efforts?
<4> Linus: I see them evolving, but not because it has to do with 'bowing to public pressure' but because they have a more effective method
<4> which is again, largely, thanks to the benefits of that strategy and the wall and intel sharing
<0> my original point was i think they began to see that year after year of the same old methods werent working
<1> Linus- israel is bowing more to pressure mainly bc the us army is next door
<1> this gives them a hellofa lot more security than usual
<4> http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Why_the_-Calm-$.asp
<4> the 'method' beforehand was.. do nothing, in an attempt to save face for the Oslo non-process
<0> thebarry, yeah, look at the security we're providing baghdad civvies!
<4> while bombers did their thing, repeatedly,
<4> until a point of not being able to sit idly by was reached
<1> look at how many terrorists weve killed
<8> Abusive Domain or User
<1> they havent won a single battel
<0> Timur, that was a very small slice of time in the whole of this long term conflict
<4> it was a small slice of time, but a very bloody one.
<4> WWII was a small slice of time in the history of Europe
<0> theb, i don't see how US presence in the region changes israel policy much
<4> Linus: it changes it enormously.
<4> the pressure on hostile states is increased, which is a good thing.
<0> you're comparing ww2 bloodiness to a couple years of israeli p***iviness?
<0> the US is not going to intervene in any way with any palestinians
<0> militarily
<4> no, I'm saying that the brevity of a period of time doesn't speak to its significance.
<0> so in regards to isreali policy vis a vis palestinians, i don't think our presence there has an impact
<4> that's extremely naive.
<4> in fact, it has a huge impact
<0> such as?
<4> on, say, the Syrian giving-up of WMDs, their withdrawal from Lebanon
<4> the increased cooperation of Arab states with the US
<4> the Libyan giving-up of WMDs
<0> israeli policy towards palestinians
<7> "palestinians" in Jordan. "palestinians" in Lebanon. "palestinians" in Syria. And the only ones who don't live in refugee camps, get to vote and be employed are the "palestinians" in Israel.
<0> i wasn't specific initially but i thought i clarified it
<4> the Palestinians are intimately connected to, and affected by the policies and events in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt.
<4> and Iran, as wel
<4> and Saudi
<4> among other places
<0> i still haven't seen evidence that sharon's policies were changed by US intervention in the region
<4> money is given, groups sponsored, policies made and followed, by those countries, for their particular proxies in the Palestinian areas
<4> that's because you clearly don't understand the huge extent of the interrelatedness of governments and populations and groups in the area.
<0> everything youve put forth, i could see impacting palestine governing body
<3> Build the ****ing wall and give the god damned settlements, that should NEVER have been started, back.
<0> i have not seen any clear evidence it has altered sharon govts initiatives
<4> Iran and Syria, for example, sponsor Islamic Jihad; Syria, Hamas; Saudi Arabia, Hamas, etc etc
<4> those initiatives are at least in part a function of what the PAlestinians do or don't o
<4> do
<3> ****ing lunatics, who in their right mind wants to live in a settlement in the middle of enemy territory?
<4> so, sure, it's hard to quantify it, but because of the nature of the interrelatedness of events and policies, it must be so.
<0> wait a minute... sharon's polcies have been called unilateral for at least two years now
<3> Both sides have more than their share of nut cases.
<4> Tailor: people who want discounted mortgages, or people who expect to be annexed to the home state, or already have
<0> a regular snickers bar
<0> or zionist zealots
<4> Linus: of course they're unilateral, there's no viable negotiating partner
<4> less of those, more people seeking a good deal
<3> Timur, discounted mortgages on land that belongs to someone else?
<4> it doesn't belong to them
<4> it's under dispute.
<3> Timur, there wasn't ever a reason to have those ****ing settlements.
<4> sure there was
<4> leverage.
<3> Timur, all it did was inflame the situation
<4> and annexing Jerusalem
<3> No, what leverage?
<0> i actually agree with TheTailor on something!
<3> That's horse****
<4> that you give them up in a negotiated settlement in return for recognition
<3> Horse****
<4> which is to some extent what's happened
<3> And a stupid plan
<4> that was the calculation
<3> The calculation was dead wrong
<4> and as far as 'inflaming the situation', lots of things have been and are doing that
<3> Leave those people alone and get the **** off their land
<3> Build the wall
<0> sharon has "decommissioned" the settlements without any reciprocity from pals
<4> which exact parts are 'theirs'?
<4> that's unclear
<4> and if there'd been good-faith negotiations under Arafat, and no terrorism, they'd alreayd have it
<3> Gaza and the west bank, THAT is teir land, get out.
<4> and now they pay a price, and that price is some land
<4> no, not all of it is. Even Oslo didn't predicate that.
<3> Timur, you may never have had a problem if you left them alone
<4> huh?
<3> The settlements were tha absolute WRONG thing to do.
<4> ok, do you really need a history lesson?
<0> allowing the settlements was like pushing a rope
<9> Boys boys boys
<9> We're all friends here (Except for Linus-)
<4> I'm not going to rehash the last 50 years, in which the context of a statement like 'leave them alone' really is totally meaningless.
<0> hehe
<0> "outsiders" win elections :)
<10> it should be like the old days, if you wage war and lose land, that is the price of waging war
<10> tough beans
<4> they're lucky they still have the West Bank not to mention being 20% of the Israeli polity
<0> what war did "isreal" wage in the 40's to ghain land?
<10> there has to be consequences for waging war
<0> israel
<10> Linus i am talking about the arabs waging war on Israel
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