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Comments:
<0> ok, and the money for these schools comes from.. ?
<1> Me
<1> as it already is
<0> the reality is, local districts only comes from the local tax base
<0> and that base can't support an unlimited # of schools
<1> and local taxes come from me
<0> generally
<0> from you, alone?
<1> Ahhh yes
<0> wow, what a responsibility.
<1> as OC said this morning your arguments in circles
<1> as many others have complained in arguing with you
<0> no, I'm actually flushing out the issue
<0> and presenting realities
<1> its never ending
<1> its over
<1> :)
<1> later mr expert
<0> if that seems circular to you, that's probably because you don't understand the issues that well.
<0> I'd happily provide some sites with research on any educational issues, if you want.
<0> it's kind of like people who think that discussions about, say, the Islamic world from an American perspective are circular
<0> well, sure they are, when people have little sense of the history or culture of the people being discussed
<0> same limited set of facts and insights endlessly exchanged.
<0> much heat, little light.
<2> timur: well, as I said, at least here in florida.. it seems like supreme court is intent on quashing every program that actuall has been effective
<2> as somehow, minorities showing strong improvements is "evil" and "wrong".. :-/
<0> Lup: such as?
<0> I'm not familiar with the situation in Florida..
<2> well, two of the most effective was: allowing certain students forced to go to a poor school, choose to go to a better public school, with alternative transportation
<2> that was "evil" because then you arn't forcing "desegregation".. having the proper ratio of whites to blacks was more important than the quality fo education
<2> and then in south florida, vouchers have been also effective for smart kids, who happen to be from poor families.. but that was just axed last month
<0> there's a movement here to allow charter schools that are single gender
<0> but again, on a similar basis, it's being challenged
<2> and in fact, the justices refused to listen to the actual students performance..
<0> or actually, disallowed
<2> when it comes to schools.. i think the performance of the kids is paramount
<0> which I think is idiotic
<0> Lup: I agree
<0> wow, refreshing to discuss issues with someone who can make a coherent argument.
<2> :P
<0> Lup: they libral
<1> <2> and then in south florida, vouchers have been also effective for smart kids, who happen to be from poor families.. but that was just axed last month
<0> JEb Bush libral
<1> Hmmmm I argued the same damn thing
<0> rond: I wasn't addressing the voucher thing
<1> but nooooo that is not a smart argument
<1> yes you did
<0> no, it's not
<2> well, jeb bush's school policies were much derided when he took office ~7 years ago.. oh no, it would be detrimental to the kids etc.. and in fact, it made some major strides in improvements
<0> no, I was addressing the ability of kids to change schools despite racial balance.
<1> I see
<1> ok
<2> myself, and many republicans have a love/hate relationship with Jeb.. for example, he did alot of damage over the terri shiavro
<0> whch has nothing to do with vouchers, as such.
<1> so parents should only have choices within the public school system
<1> not out of ?
<0> no, that's not the issue
<0> parents should have choice, but that's not the only issue.
<1> what kind of choices should parents have ?
<0> another issue is the ability to provide equity in access to education for all children.
<0> that is, by the way, constitutionally mandated, as held by the SC for years, under a variety of configurations.
<2> timur: the problem with that is.. the end solution often is that everyone gets crap :-/
<1> and how does vouchers go against that mandate
<1> do
<0> rond: because privatizing the system will deny the ability for those who can't afford it.
<2> rond: well, for example.. one of the arguements against the florida system was.. students at good schools could not get a voucher to go to a private/magnet school..
<1> how do vouchers privatize the system ?
<3> WASHINGTON - If
<3> President Bush gets his way, the venerable $255
<3> Social Security death benefit will fade into history. And 16- and 17-year-old high school dropouts will lose their monthly survivor payments.
<0> Lup: I think it's a bigger problem than just having to obey mandates; it speaks to a deeper and broader set of cultural values. As we've seen in the convo with OcDoc, we value sports, for example, more than academics, all too often.
<3> oh my god Bush is actually going to make KIDs responsible!
<3> BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
<1> Timur how do vouchers privatize the system ?
<0> rond: the voucher movement has gone, and is going, hand-in-hand with the move to undermine public schools and privatize education
<1> Timur how do vouchers privatize the system ?
<0> I .. just said.
<1> No you did not answer
<1> you made an ***umption
<1> How do they do that
<0> School vouchers, also known as scholarships, redirect the flow of education funding, channeling it directly to individual families rather than to school districts. This allows families to select the public or private schools of their choice and have all or part of the tuition paid.
<1> yes
<0> it's not an ***umption; it's a well established fact.
<1> and what is wrong with that
<1> sec
<0> what's wrong is it ignores the problem.
<1> what is wrong with parents having a choice
<1> by vouchers
<0> in and of itself? nothing
<2> timur: well, in broward county.. vouchers represent a net-profit for the public school..
<0> in the context of whether that necessarily provides education, doesn't, necessarily
<0> Lup: how so?
<1> Timur so why don't we have vouchers if there is nothing wrong with it ?
<2> timur: their per-pupil allowance is less than the actual cost per student
<2> as the voucher is not 100%..
<2> so say, the cost for one kid at a public school is $100. if the kid leaves teh school, and gets a voucher for $80.. the $20 still goes to the public school.. as a net profit
<0> because it 1. doesn't necessarily (really doesn't) improve education, and 2. undermines the notion, well established, of a free and public education available for all.
<3> Timur wants a scholarship for beauty school
<1> How does it undermine that
<0> Lup: ok, that's one possible system
<1> I don't get it
<0> I know.
<1> well explain that to me
<0> there's only so many resources for education, riht
<0> so
<3> Timur wants to become a beauty school drop out and wear pink hair in the remake of Grease
<0> when you remove resources from schools that are struggling
<3> ohh piss on schools they are over rated
<4> greece is the word
<0> and on top of that have NCLB which says not making AYP for 3 years will result in the school being closed down
<3> greece is a turd
<2> well, i do not subscribe to the theory that schools are underfunded.. they simply are spending the money in frivolous areas
<4> turd is a word
<3> Lupine yeap like on teachers
<0> and then you're left with 2 options
<0> 1. private schools that are more expensive, hence not affordable for all
<4> **** you, beeyotch
<1> So your answer is to force parents who live in an area with a struggling school to put up with that till the school straightens out ????
<0> and/or 2. a new public school, which still exists in the same context as the old, even if newly configured
<3> there now you will have stinky foot all day
<4> i didn't nned your ***istance
<0> no, my answer is to devote resources and involvement by parents, and the whole community, to improving the educational experience of children.
<3> ahhhh that sweet effevescent scent
<2> timur: well, the charter school at my old town, was cheaper per student than the public school. Of course, part of that is because they refuse to take children who do not wish to be there. i.e. they avoid alot of problem children
<3> er effer
<4> i am the lorax and i thpeak for the thneeds!
<1> Resources = money right ?
<3> everpresent
<2> rond: raise taxes!!!
<4> i thpit a lot when i talk too!
<0> rond: right, among other forms
<0> land; labor
<5> I wonder how much $$$ was spent by school systems after the last two presidential elections providing grief consoling for their liberal teachers?
<3> thats cause you talk like a queer in heat
<1> Hmmmmm
<3> hahaha JBL
<1> So we raise taxes in other parts of town to force a failing school to somehow come to terms with itself
<0> Lup: yes, keeping problem kids out of schools definitely makes it easier for that particular school
<4> about as much as you're gonna spend on hospitalization JBL
<1> that somehow gets parents more involved ????
<3> wait until your school taxes DOUBLE next year in order to pay for school busses
<3> gas and all that
<1> or do we raise taxes in only the part of town with the failing school ???
<0> no, parents must get more involved independent of other factors if 1. they care about their kids and 2. they hope to have an impact on the outcomes.
<4> CA schools don't own bus fleets anymore
<1> How does adding more resources (money) do that ?
<3> HEBRON, West Bank - Hundreds of Palestinians attacked an international observer mission in this volatile city Wednesday, throwing stones and smashing windows as dozens of foreigners were trapped inside the most violent West Bank protest yet against Danish cartoons seen as insulting to Islam.
<6> Yes, it's cheaper just to put problem kids in prison for the rest of theuir life when they are older than try and get them and education, Prisons give free educations too
<7> 426 heya
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