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Comments:
<0> its much more common to hear the freeper "make the mideast a gl*** parking lot" line
<1> http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/3003/sutrajesus7jx.gif
<2> td-: what about deir y***in in -47?
<3> right, that wasn't the Israelis doing 'm*** murder'; it was Christian Lebanese Phalangists.
<4> israelis killing 20,000 people in a refugee camp
<2> td-: but going back 20-30 years and more isn't very relevant.
<1> Fark Photoshop contests, the website that started Armageddon!
<3> again it was Lebanese doing tat
<3> so
<3> you're wrong
<4> sure it was.
<2> td-: especially when it wasn't israeli forces doing the damage...
<3> nope
<2> td-: so, you aren't really hitting the target here now..
<4> Yeah, cuz he says so.
<2> td-: the trick si to look at target percentages. Which fraction have the highest civilian target-count.
<4> Ok, my bad, those poor israelis
<2> and well.. I'm sad to break this to you, but the israelis DO have a far higher military-terrorist-target percentage.
<4> would never hurt a fly.
<2> td-: i did not say so.. :-)
<2> the problem is the "israelis are bad, palestinians are nice guys, feel sorry for palestinans"-attitude...
<3> they don't commit acts of terror.
<3> the Israelis aren't the problem, except for lefto-Islamic lickers
<4> Oh i didnt say that
<4> Im just saying when your crying for the deaths of a couple israelis, look at the other side.
<4> israelis have been killing arabs just as long as arabs have been killing israelis
<4> yet we should feel a deep sympathy for israel?
<0> both sides are evil
<3> that's a nonsensical statement
<3> no, both sides aren't evil.
<3> one side is trying to survive, despite a consistent onslaught of wars and terrorism
<4> Ah yes...
<0> its too complex of an issue for me to take sides either way but the israelis arent saints
<4> listen to this guy
<3> the other side is consistently attempting wars of extermination, and when those fail, resorts to terrorism.
<3> no, they're not saints, but they're much morally superior
<2> ofcourse the israelis aren't saints, they are fighting a vast overpowered enemy.. :-)
<3> like the US isn't composed of saints
<3> but we're a hell of a lot better than the terrorists.
<2> they have to use "cheap" tactics..
<3> they have to rethink their tactics, is what they have to do.
<3> or not, and then just get more of the same
<5> palestinians turn to violence, Israel reacts
<5> I suppose Israel is supposed to just do nothing... in some peoples minds
<3> furthermore, Israel is a vibrant democracy, with women's rights, rule of law, free press, etc
<3> and the Arabs, pretty much, aren't such
<5> I think the violence over the cartoons is VERY self explanatory of the extremists the Israelis are fighting against
<3> I agree
<3> look at what happened in Lebanon yesterday
<2> especially these days, then a hamas that want to kill all jews and remove israel from the map is dominant
<3> Muslim mobs rioted and not only torched a building with 3 emb***ies, but then rampaged through a Christian neighborhood (Achrafiyeh), burning cars, looting stores, invading homes
<5> Christians didn't have anything to do with the cartoons, but of course the extremists set the church on fire, killed a roman catholic priest, etc etc
<4> yeah, look at hamas, they sure look like violent people. building hospitals and cartoons
<4> err
<4> schools :)
<3> and sending suicide bombers
<3> and shooting missiles
<3> yeah, they're sweethearts.
<4> oh they are hezbollah now
<3> uh
<6> we all know the danes and norwegians aren't real christians!
<5> nah, Hamas is saintly, they only call for the destruction of Israel
<3> no, missiles are being sent not just from Hizbollah-dominated Lebanon, but from Gaza
<3> for the last few months, in fact, in case you haven't read the news much
<3> the 'Q***am' rockets
<6> Timur, you mean those bottle rockets?
<6> ;)
<2> td-: well, have you seen the education in those schools..?
<2> td-: and since an organization does good things.. they are all good..?
<5> hell Israel GIVES Palestinians tax money to the tune of some 25 MILLION dollars
<4> so when they do bad things they are all bad?
<5> but hte Israelis are the bad guys
<5> no one said that td-
<5> but of course thats how you justify it
<3> no, I mean the ones that are being fired from Gaza that target and often hit targets, and do cause casualties, *despite* Israel's withdrawal from Gaza
<6> both sides have enough shame to go aorund
<3> so guess what
<2> td-: hamas cannot be touched beacause they have a side-project like they ahve? ;-)
<3> when they do that, they get bombed
<4> im just saying they are equally to blame, both sides are violent murderers
<2> td-: well, as long as they demand that all jews are dead.. YES they are all bad when it comes to having negotiations with the israeli..
<3> no, they're not.
<2> td-: if you had a neighbour.. and you two had a disagreement.. would you like to discuss the matter freely with him if he openly admits that he wants to kill you...?
<3> ascribing equivalence shows a total lack of understanding or knowledge of the situation.
<6> theres blame and shame enough to go around
<6> ***igning equivalency is kinda silly
<5> thats usually what happens in war
<2> td-: if I kill you, it doesen't matter if I help homless kids on my spare time..
<6> hehehe
<4> Yes it sure does man
<2> I do red cross work each winter, walk in the mountains finding lost people..
<3> it's worse than silly; it's disingenuous and harmful
<4> well i have lost this argument, all hail the good people of israel
<2> but does this help me if I coldblooded kill someone..? :-)
<2> td-: you still miss the point...
<6> Timur, that wasn't my point
<2> td-: there is no good and evil here, there is evil - evil.
<2> the one evil is just better than the other.. :-)
<6> my point was, if both parties are engaged in eye for eye mentality, its kinda hard to see who's most responsible
<4> oh man, that statement is gonna upset timur
<3> Linus: I know. it was mine. :)
<6> noted
<3> Linus: it's not hard to see if you study some of the history.
<6> don't go condescending on me
<3> I'm not, it's just the truth
<3> you can read, right
<6> history is editorialized
<3> so, if and when you read some hstory of the area, then you'll understand more
<3> meaning what, no point in studying it? :)
<7> who's killed more palastinians than arabs????
<3> no one
<6> ive read a lot about the voyage of discovery, yet i know its biased
<3> then you can speak to that issue with at least some informed perspective
<3> at least
<6> theres a point in studying it, but with objectivity
<7> what would the left say if Israel had killed half as many palstinians as the arabs had?
<2> the interesting part here is jordan
<2> jordans part in the cnflict
<2> conflict
<2> if you look at the original plans of a palestine
<6> the west's problem is we stuck our hand in the beehive
<6> we should have allowed them to kill each other off
<2> jordan has 85% of that now..
<6> the various muslim factions, if that's what they choose
<2> do we here palestinians cry for justice in jordan? :9
<2> :-)
<6> only in Crossing Jordan
<6> they cry, "Help, get me out of this awful series!"
<7> the arabs promote the israel/palastinian conflict to cover up the history of the arab/palastinian conflicts
<3> Linus: except that sentiment is totally besides the point, since it has no bearing as to how things developed in the area post-WWI, which is what determined current borders and set up the current situation in many, even most, ways
<3> Linus: right, but that objectivity comes through study
<3> otherwise there's no way to ***ess a basis for objectivity.
<6> Timur, how much of the region's history have you read that was written by arabs living there?
<3> a good amount.
<3> Albert Hourani
<3> George Antonius
<3> Leila Sabbagh
<6> ok then, i give you credit
<3> ok
<3> to name but 3 authors I happen to remember
<6> are they lovers of cheeseburgers, though?
<6> ;)
<6> ie, westernized?
<3> not to mention that Bernard Lewis uses extensive quotes from and references to Arab, Persian, and Turkish authors
<3> I guess it depends what you mean by that
<3> in what way, a wholesale 'love of the West in every aspect without criticism'?
<3> also, Ibn Khaldun, Rumi, etc
<6> have they been known to support propped up dictatorships
<3> no
<2> like khomeini? ;-)
<3> they're not explicitly political as such
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