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Comments:
<0> Sorry, but that's a steaming pile of elephant ****.
<1> Disco: Its probably unpleasant for a longer period of time...
<2> i heard someone say it costs more to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life, but i don't see how
<3> Disco: I've never heard anyone try to say that was the main reason for their opposition
<1> Since... once you're dead, its not unpleasant anymore.
<3> horace: the cost of the appeals process which appears endless
<0> horace: the perpetual appeals process is expensive.
<4> DiscoTaco, well actually, personally if I murdered someone
<4> I'd plea bargain to GET the death sentence, if my other option was life without parole
<2> is that not a valid reason to get rid of the death penalty --- to save money?
<0> not by itself, no
<2> why not?
<3> people who oppose the death penalty line up any shred of an argument to support the case, but there is no doubt in MY mind that at least SOME criminals should be executed ... the only question left is how much evidence do you need?
<0> because there are other cost-benefit analyses to the death penalty debate than bottom-line dollar cost.
<3> horace: no it's a stupid reason
<4> OcDoc, I sorta think that there should be a new legal definition for cases which are considered "clear cut"
<4> And the death penalty is allowed for those cases of a certain magnitude
<4> but everything else is life sentence or less.
<2> such as what, DiscoTaco
<3> horace: we should only kill a criminal when there's little doubt about the guilt and severity of the crime
<0> The dollar-cost of housing a prisoner versus executing a prisoner. is a valid part of a multivariate analysis. But it is not the only variable to be factored.
<3> PO: exactly
<4> DiscoTaco, which is greater depends from area to area.
<3> DIsco: it's by far not the most important
<5> death is over rated we all have to face the penalty
<3> the real consideration should be the guilt and how sure we are
<0> horace: such as the deterrent value of the death penalty and the cost in innocent human lives of removing it, the economic impact violent crime has on communities, et cetera.
<3> yup
<2> whoah. you mean to suggest the death penalty deters crime?
<2> that's a bold claim
<3> Disco: I disagree ... I think it's a matter of principle ultimately
<0> horace: no, I mean to suggest it's an issue that needs to be considered. It's certainly not a settled issue.
<3> if it's true that some criminals should be killed, then the only question left is how sure we are of the guilt of the criminal
<2> i need some sort of data verification
<5> if the only punishment to crime is death...then who cares...now make punishment miserable to wish u were dead..thats something else
<3> raggr: not every crime
<5> agreed
<3> raggr: just certain crimes
<5> yea
<3> if you hang pickpockets then that's a mockery
<5> sorry i was speaking generally of the death penalty
<1> I don't believe the death penalty is a particular deterrant to crime, since generally when its applied, the person committing the crime is absolutly insane anyway.
<3> raggr: the decision should be disp***ionate to avoid abuses
<0> Many people who commit murder are very rational and calculated about it.
<2> so if the death penalty does not deter crime and is more expensive, then what reason is there for it?
<3> raggr: torturing people the way they tortured their victims certainly is appealing, but it encourages abuse and makes society worse than the criminals
<5> i think justice serve on the repocrussion of the act of crime more than the act of crime
<5> should serve rather
<5> repocussion hehe
<3> horace: it eliminates dangerous people
<0> horace: making sure that person does not enter society again.
<3> repercussion?
<3> if you kill a crminal, he will never again commit any crimes
<2> so you must allow for the possiblity of prison escapes? how often does that really happen in a maximum security place which would be housing such serious offenders
<3> and it serves the idea that the punishment should fit the crime
<5> hehe im saying that justice should weigh on what happens to the surrounding individuals over the actual crime in its pure form
<0> horace: not just prison escapes but other unpredictable variables such as sympathetic judges, parole boardes, "life" sentences that last 17 years, etc.
<0> horace: not to mention the ability of prisoners to continue conducting their criminal enterprises from within the prison.
<3> prisons are a disgrace to a free society ... most crimes are economic ones and should be punished economically
<3> most criminals have the ability to be reformed, or they were crimes of p***ion that are unlikely to be repeated
<2> alright, well, we've reached the point where you've sufficiently argued your viewpoint and i am in agreement
<1> Doc: I think that's the one big reason for the death penalty... preventing someone from committing more ctimes.
<3> AStro: I agree
<5> i think if a criminal understands the crime he acted out then he will maybe be closer to understanding himself
<6> CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- An Egyptian cruise ship with 1,300 people on board has disappeared from radar screens in the Red Sea off the Saudi coast, Egyptian maritime officials said Friday.
<3> I respect people who say the death penalty should never be used but I disagree
<5> time should not be payed to criminals
<0> Timur: WTF
<5> they have taken up too much time already
<0> not good news.
<0> time to dispatch the Navy
<1> Doc: I think the key to determining when that's true, is how dangerous the person would be to detain.
<3> Timur: the Red Sea Triangle ... heavy music in background
<2> the death penalty could be eliminated if certain measures were made to prevent any harm from its absence
<2> all very possible
<3> horace: I disagree
<5> agreed
<5> well its arguable sure.
<3> the death penalty should always be used in certain cases to make it just
<6> DT: right
<5> the death penalty is the easy way out although
<6> Oc: yeah. .
<5> most see it as justification
<3> consistent and fair and no nonsense
<0> OcDoc: there are very pragmatic reasons to argue against the death penalty. Unfortunately the anti death-penalty folks who get the msot coverage are the "Save Tookie" types whose arguments are not pragmatic but are based on conferring sainthood upon an obvious ****head.
<5> because their imagination hasnt thought of something more useful
<3> Disco: yeah
<0> Normal people who have misgivings about the death penalty don't want to breathe the same air as the "Save Tookie" crowd.
<3> it's especially the crazy killers who should be executed ... insanity is no mitigation in MY mind
<3> it makes them MORE dangerous to society, not less
<5> i think murdering those close to tookie is a better solution to tookies crime
<5> but this isnt possible
<1> raggr: That, and its insane.
<0> heh
<1> You don't punish the child, for the crimes of the father. ;)
<5> its not insane when its your loved one
<3> Astro: well, but if it comes down to a gun battle with his mob, so be it
<1> Yes, its insane.
<5> and we all know why there are gun rights
<1> Doc: Well, yeah. You know what I mean.
<3> I'm talking about the cool light of reason after the fact
<5> the justice system needs to not be so p***ive about insanity
<6> raggr: so we can die with dignity while fighting the upcoming government-run holocaust
<5> justice in the same shoes would do what serves its name properly
<3> raggr: insanity plea is a relic from a previous era when we knew less about insanity
<2> the justice system needs to not be so insane about drug possession
<1> Doc: I think insanity is a valid defense, if its a treatable condition.
<3> insanity in and of itself should not be feared so much by society ... but violent insanity has a really POOR prognosis both medicall and criminally
<5> insanity is killing in the first place
<5> i dont fight unless u throw the first punch
<3> AStrodog: that's the part that is no longer true ... insanity is always "treatable"
<3> so it is never a defence
<3> using insanity as a defence makes a mockery of justice
<5> justice knows better
<3> the most it should ever be is a mitigating factor in the sentencing
<5> its how far can we work the system
<5> and get away with it
<3> there's no such thing, for example, as temporary insanity
<3> and if you became well and found out you'd killed a little girl while you were insane, would you WANT to live?
<3> it's just an excuse
<5> no id die, id take my own life
<3> I don't think I could live with that
<1> Doc: Then it should be altered to undiagnosed insanity, that removed someone's ability to tell right from wrong.
<3> these people are ***holes who got caught and now they're struggling to keep their miserable lives for a little while longer
<5> the entire picture is to bleed them together like art
<5> this is liberal
<5> not black and white justice
<3> Astro: anyone who commits that kind of crime OBVIOUSLY can't tell right from wrong ... that makes them MORE dangerous, not less
<1> Doc: I think the key is the undiagnosed part.
<6> Israel Defense Forces troops on Friday thwarted a terror attack planned for the center of the country when they arrested two Palestinians attempting to smuggle explosive belts out of the West Bank city of Nablus.
<3> if the system is biased against blacks that should be corrected, but it's not an excuse not to kill a particular black
<5> the system isnt biased towards blacks...the blacks make the system biased and therefore it is biased....
<5> I am black
<3> it just means more white criminals should be killed
<3> raggr: it may be in some places ... that should be investigated and corrected
<5> racism is predominitely black forthcoming these days
<5> thats because african americans have not grown up
<3> if a defendent can show on appeal that he got a bad trial that should result in a new trial somewhere else
<3> not elimination of the entire concept of the death penalty ... sheesh
<5> to send someone into the afterlife in the united states is against the roots of the country
<3> raggr: not having grown up yet is not an exclusively black phenomenon
<3> raggr: I disagree, the roots of the country are full of death
<5> agreed OcDoc
<3> I would love to tone down the amount of death in our country
<5> domestic war is alot different from the term "WAR"
<3> but letting insane murderers stay alive is not the first step
<5> i disagree
<3> it comes down to how you look at life, our relationship to society, your theory of where crime and violence come from, and your theory about how to reduce them
<5> agreed...crime is grey these days
<5> it used to not be
<3> people who think that criminals are created solely by unjust societies are way off in my opinion
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