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Comments:
<0> CometBaby, I can only express my experience. Excellent and immediate emergency treatment (though I admit getting through ER can be a bitch) and scheduled surgery.
<1> Ndorphin it isn't lacking in quality for the most part; what it lacks is in it's availability to the average person.
<2> Ndorphin: i do not care what the "average" is.. I care about what the system allows a person of modest means to achieve on his own merits
<3> Lupine....you brought up the lawn thing, not me. You seemed to think it was important. Sorry if M***achussetts lawns aren't year-rounders either, pal! tsk tsk!
<4> kobushi - that's what i'm saying, for the most part. However i do think the cost/quality ratio is disappointing as well.
<2> word: and yet, that recent study on waits for things such as angiograms was very alarming
<1> Eve if the US institutes a socialized healthcare program, I think it would be a big mistaked to make it "free" to people. There should always be some cost to the individual, say $50
<0> Not familiar with it, Lupine. URL?
<2> Sun: no no, that was just an *example* of one aspect.. there are alot of other aspects I value
<4> Lupine - i didn't mention the concept of the 'average' but yeah that doesn't surprise me thats what you think.
<2> word: it was hashed out on here a few months back, wouldn't have it off hand
<1> Ndorphin yes, because the cost for the non-insured, is driven up substansially by insurance laws and requirments.
<5> Ndorphin i think about 1/3 of this channel easily make 100k a year so health insurance is easily paid for .
<4> haha
<4> you have absolutely no basis for that statistic
<2> Ndorphin: by and large, people's lives are based on their life choices. There are a few, of course, who had tragic events beyond their control
<1> Ndorphin I use a friend's gastric byp*** surgery as an example, he was billed $30,000 ... of that bill, the medical center that did the operation recieved $9000
<6> Oh christ, BushEsque ? Give me a ****ing break. This country was no more bravado about our health care system under Bush than it was under clinton, we know we have great systems and we know we have terrible systems within our healthcare mosaic
<1> Ndorphin after the insurance mandated "discounts"
<7> here is a small clue. in 1980 the US Spent 296 billion on healthcare, in 1990 it was 694 billion, in 2k it was 1.2 trillion. Did our population double every ten years? not even. What makes the cost go up so much? GOVERNMENT
<2> GZ: in my case, my company paid for everyone :-)
<6> Wo what the **** is this guy Ndorphin talking about ?
<0> Paying for universal healthcare isn't burdening some "mythical somebody else" any more than universal paved roads, universally clean water, and universal access to libraries is victimizing the beleaguered rightist.
<6> And why is it hald the ****ing world does a residency in the USA
<6> At least from my experience.
<1> Ndorphin So, basically, w/o insurance being a factor, that surgery would have cost $9000... but insurance pushes the price up t $30,000, just so the medical place can get thier $9k
<4> FreeTrade - that's great, i didn't advocate on Clinton's behalf or sanction his rhetoric.
<7> Universal paved healthcare. **** that.
<6> No country has a health care system which is just swimmingly wonderful
<5> KoBushi how much did your friend pay out of pocket?
<4> i love it when any criticism of bush is countered with "well clinton X"
<7> we lose 40K a year to "Universal Roads"
<7> such stupidity
<6> Ndorphin well i am sanctioning your hyperbole and Rhetoric the way you use Bushesque as a dishonest perjorative.
<7> Ndorphin it does highlight double standards.
<1> DarthBurg eh, more than just government ... insurance companies, combined with state governments, and deals with med-tech companies drive the cost up
<2> best *DAMN* infrastructure i've ever seen, was 100% privately provided. Not a dime of taxpayers money used. Of course, it was the ONLY area with power/phones/sewer/water/internet during Hurricane Wilma CatIII winds
<8> ndorphin do you really love it
<6> You either talk issues and talk straight on this channel or you find another channel to talk bull**** or childishness.
<1> {GZ}Dr1ev doesn't really matter
<5> why?
<6> This channel is not some radical playground for wacko extremists on either side.
<9> Nodrphin .. the left is going to have to live with the clinton legacy for a very long time. They were not out there decrying it when it happened and it gives their whining now, a distinct smell.
<1> {GZ}Dr1ev because the issue is the total cost, not what he personally paid... SOMEONE has to pay for it even if he didn't
<5> i mean was your friedn complaining that he had to pay 50/50?
<3> ooh! FreeTrade!
<2> MAPLEWOOD, Minn., Feb 2 (Reuters) - President George W. Bush on Thursday called on Congress to raise the cap on the so-called H-1B visas that allow companies to fill high tech jobs with foreign workers.
<2> "The problem is, is that Congress has limited the number of H-1B visas," Bush said in a speech.
<5> friend*
<7> what, we are not supposed to point out the fact that Super Bill did the same thing and got a free p*** on it while Dubya is called every name in the book?
<6> Now what is the issue I can DEBATE
<8> cometbaby during clintons term when anyone brought up reagan nobody whined
<6> I dont want ****ing perjoratives, I want to know the issues
<9> redfish .. like hell they didn't :)
<1> {GZ}Dr1ev further; it points out why medical care is so $ for those w/o insurance... because the insurance companis drive the prices up by having manditory discounts.
<6> I know a lot about healthcare in the USA>
<8> cometbaby i mean nobody whined in response to people mentioning reagan
<2> KoB: aka the $100 tylenol pill
<9> oh I see, okay :)
<4> CometBaby - you only seem to understand political debate in terms of "the left" and your personal hatred for an ideology that you've totally anthropomorphized.
<6> Oh well, Noone is going to debate me... I can see that now.
<3> FreeTrade...I'd like to ask you a queston that possibly you might want to debate or at least give us your enlightened opinion.
<6> Or let me in.
<7> The "Left" exists, no matter how you try and white wash it.
<4> when arguing about bush, if the best one can do to counter is to resurrect clinton is just weak.
<1> Lupine exactly. And companies can't charge the uninsured at a different rate than they charge the insured
<1> unless as charity
<2> ND: No, the point was: if it was THE SAME under clinton, as under bush.. you can't act like it is all bush's fault.
<6> Sun, My opinions are not always enlightened, Sometimes they are formed by getting hit by a truch in the face.
<6> ;)
<6> But shoot
<8> you dont understand why people bring up clinton then
<5> 8:24pm]+ Ndorphin CometBaby - you only seem to understand political debate in terms of "the left" and your personal hatred for an ideology that you've totally anthropomorphized.
<10> Which country has the highest GDP p.r. capita Ireland or the U.S? (2005)
<6> This guy is getting on my nerves
<5> Ndorphin i would love for you to get on a mic and pronounce that word
<5> lol
<9> Ndorphin, I understand more than you give me credit for. And spare the the clinton tirade .. "why do you bring up clinton?" and "I never suported clinton" have been reduced to the rhetoric whine.
<1> NicknickN who cares? :)
<6> Sun Whats your question ?
<1> NicknickN comparing mean GDP isn't a useful comparison; we need at least a median as well; and preferably a standard deviation
<3> FreeTrade, do you feel that criticism of a sitting government is a Constitutional right and duty or tantamount to treason ( under any and ALL circumstances) ?
<11> KoBushi ;>
<2> Which country has the highest rate of redhead drunks per capita? Ireland or the U.S>? :-)
<7> Treason is pretty specific, as is sedition, the donkeys are guilty of both.
<6> I will debate any issue I feel I have knowlege in and I will avoid any I feel i dont, this channel will not devolve to some extreme left or rightwing blog full of bull****
<2> SuN: either/or
<7> not all of them of course. but enough
<11> hear hear, FreeTrade!
<1> as mean GDP can be grossly inaccurate ... if 1 person owns 90% of the wealth; the mean GDP could be high, but the vast majority of people still very poor
<4> As for bush's rhetorically colorful but completely hollow statement : "With open markets and a level playing field, no one can out-produce or out-compete the American worker." All this conveys is a deep dishonesty and condescension which Colbert pointed out last night.
<12> I am an extreme moderate and when I have a dictatorship of the middle, you will all obey me
<6> SunDodger, Critisizing a sitting administration is absolutely a protected right and legitimate. But not on this channel when you are debating issues which have nothing to do with the president.
<6> For exampel Bush did not create our health care system
<7> Nor did he invent Iraq
<1> I invented Iraq... it took me a long time to build the sand though
<13> My brother, the straight-A high school senior, football star, and nationally-honoured Air Cadet, was just declined from the Regular Officer Training Programme because he tried shrooms two years ago.
<7> and no, we can not forget the eight years the grifter was in office
<0> Timur, at least you're out-front, unlike that moderate moderate candidate.
<10> Kobushi, I agree with you. Don't have the sd or the mean. Just thought it interesting that Ireland was higher by an inch...
<2> Pickle: jeez, did he admit to it, or was he arrested over it?
<6> But in general everyone has the right to free speech just not anywhere or any place, I accept criticism of administrations provided it is thoughtful, it is part and parcel to a debate, and it is leading to some issue. Outside this channel you can attack any administration ad naseum, OF course its not treason, its a vaulted right of our people.
<13> Lupine: He admitted to it on his application form.
<4> This statement shows that Bush believes in communicating the self-delusion of american exceptionalism, as if we're immune to factors of environment, economy, and conflict, and inherently special.
<2> pickle: phuck! that shows some strong courage and honesty.. which OUGHT to be part of the creed
<6> Its the foundation of our democracy to critisize our administration, government or anythign we want to critisize
<3> Lupine..do NOT try to needle me over grammar ..you will lose and look liek an even bigger idiot than your blinkered belief that the sunny part of the US is the only place that has lawns ( non-grown, mind. rolled off a truck!).
<2> Sun: nice ad hominem
<12> aw, Lup's made a new friend
<13> Lupine: Their argument was that "shrooms can stay in your system for up to three years".
<13> Bull****.
<4> haha
<6> This channel is not like that stool in the UK where people talk free speech this is a specifically defined chat channel for intelligent debate on politics and related things.
<2> timur: he's drunk on aquivit
<12> Sundodger: now ask Lup about the imminent .gov-inspired holocaust
<4> pickle - that is crap.
<13> So now I'm fighting with my dad to get my brother to fight this stupid decision.
<12> and how his guns will help him die with dignity, unlike the Jews in WWII Europe
<6> Why is the ****ing Rhetoric in here so blistering, when did this start ?
<7> Yes, Americans are inherently special
<12> because people often say some painful outrageous ****, yet somehow aren't often called on it
<6> [17:30] <4> This statement shows that Bush believes in communicating the self-delusion of american exceptionalism, as if we're immune to factors of environment, economy, and conflict, and inherently special.
<6> BULL**** ^
<2> Pickle: my god, that's an ***backwards arguement. I mean, I could accept [ not agree with, mind you ] a policy of not taking anyone who tried illegal drugs.
<4> and even if they could "remain in your system" its a totally fallacious exclusion of him. You could argue that smoking cigarettes has more of an impact on your health and makes you less fit, because you retain the chemicals, but they don't reject smokers.
<7> People from all over the world live here, in freedom, the greatest country on earth. We are exploring mars, whats YOUR country doing?
<6> Bush never said anything about us being superior to other people.. Not people to people
<7> Bus stroked national pride, and donkeys are pissed, its not a shocker
<2> Freetrade: In fact, he has been one of the most "modest" presidents, and has shown respect for all religious and cultures to such a degree unheard of.
<7> Bush
<3> Pickle, you want your brother to go be a bouncer for Chevron or just your dad does? Sad!
<4> DarthBurg - i'm American. i love america in the responsible, non-delusional way.
<6> Bush and most Americans do believer we have the economy and the government model of the world.. We are proud of it, We were the first government to really put into place democratic liberalism.
<6> TYhats completely different from thinking we are superior
<2> "bouncer for chevron"? lol
<6> Its a fact our economy is the best and every nation should strive to do the best
<7> Ndorphin Very good then. Try not to be offended when people point out how awesome we are, k?
<6> All Bush said is tyhat we should continue as we have to lead the world in technology and economics.
<2> Pickle: how did they arrive at the "stays in the system for three years" BS?
<3> FreeTrade...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
<12> well, then there's that troublesome debt thing
<6> What is so funny ?
<13> Lupine: I'm trying to get my brother to take this up before the Human Rights Commission if he has to, but no one seems to believe me when I tell them that this is an actionable case. I mean, what do I know? I'm just about to graduate with a business degree, majoring in Human Resources management, which qualifies me as an expert on the subject of legal issues in recruitment and selection.
<6> I am serious I dont know why you are laughing ?
<4> FreeTrade - "the best" is really just a simpleton's guide to qualifying complex systems. its great for getting applaus, but it really glosses over reality.
<7> FreeTrade Sundodger thinsk America is a black hole
<2> Pickle: well, I would not know if the military is exempt from such things. But at least it sounds like such a stupid _reason_
<7> so he laughs when you point out reality.
<13> Lupine: That's a good question--one of many I'll be asking the recruiter tomorrow when I crawl up his ***.
<2> Pickle: but then I do not know anything about shrooms and their effects. I know that LSD can be a problem with after-effects years later
<6> We are the best economy in the world no doubt about it. And we are the peopel who brought the world airplanes, lightbulbs, automobiles, computers, super computers (before computers) the Internet. Half the medical and scientific breakthroughs.
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