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Comments:
<0> well they are thinking about it
<0> we just can't even come close to doing it now
<0> I believe
<0> hahaha
<0> HM
<0> weird
<1> that is not a realistic suggestion
<2> We may have to accept that Our ideal ending to this conflict in Iraq will not be what we prefer, I think it is wrong thinking to declare that a failure.
<2> And I am not sure had we done anything different it would of changes anything.
<3> Hi Free
<2> Civil war was always a possible outcome, I think the only problem pre planning was expextations.. This will still be a victory.
<2> Hey Rebec!
<1> there will be no end to this conflict
<1> the only thing that held the sects of iraq muzzled was Saddam's reign of terror
<2> Unfortunately no matter which way it goes it will be considered a failure by political opportunists but we removed and took the power away from one of the most dangerous regimes on the planet.
<1> now you can be sure the shiites are gonna get the sunnis, the arabs are gonna get the kurds, etc
<1> sure, it was good to go into iraq
<0> well it is a damn good thing our president appears to be an honest man
<2> Thats success whether they get it together and have a good democracy with decreased violence or whether they revolt.
<1> saddam hussein was a threat to the area
<2> If they revolt it wont be endless.
<2> We will pull bacl.
<2> We may not leave the country but we will not take sides in a true civil war.
<1> they will not have democracy
<4> Civil war, pffft.
<5> jklykggh
<1> you will leave and fund the side you want to win in the civil war heh
<4> lapointe, why not? Because they are to stupid?
<2> They already have democracy more so than we do..
<1> like you always do
<2> The number that voted was outstanding.
<1> Tailor because they are un-educated
<4> lapointe, they aren't uneducated.
<1> you people fail to understand that democracy is so much more than putting a piece of paper in a box every 4years
<4> lapointe, but clearly, you are.
<1> they are uneducated in the ways of democracy, tailor
<1> right
<4> lapointe, well no, they aren't.
<1> thats why in the past week over 500 people have died
<1> and why iraqi universities are top-notch
<4> lapointe, infact, they are very educated.
<1> heh
<2> the problem is some dont like the outcome of the elections and whats worse is Al queda is doing everything it can to foment civil war and then there is the element of the saddam loyalists which are left, they seem to be fighting with al queda now, but those are minorities in both cases trying to start a war.
<1> oh, really?
<1> in what ways are they educated
<4> Yes, really.
<1> they get a good education at the local islamic university?
<4> lapointe, in many cases out of country, and of course those people bring back what they learn.
<2> And something like 15 provinces of 18 or 19 are not experiencing violence like the concentrated areas of violence are.
<1> hey Tailor
<2> Its still the sunni triangle, the Kurds are solid, and together.
<1> guess what the literacy rate in iraq is
<1> take a wild guess
<1> 40.4%
<1> real educated
<4> lapointe, are you talking about those forming the government?
<1> how can they become a democracy if the people can't read
<2> The shia have taken m*** murder and tyranny at the hands of sunnis for 40 years.
<4> lapointe, are you talking about those forming the government?
<1> im talking about the iraqi people as a whole
<1> the government can always be replaced, the people cannot be replaced
<1> therefore they must be educated in the ways of democracy
<1> something which has not been done
<4> lapointe, that really doesn't matter does it? The leaders are what's important here.
<2> Some of the sunnis will get what they deserve if it comes to it, but the worrisome part are the majority of innocent sunnis.
<1> if you don't want a Saddam Hussein #2, then it matters
<4> lapointe, your bais is showing, badly.
<4> bias
<1> sry tailor, when 60% of the population can't read, it says something about your 'iraqis are educated' argument
<1> whats important is the people, not the government
<4> lapointe, this nonsense that the Iraqi's can't have democracy is just that.
<2> Everything negative about Iraq is predicated by a small minority of the population..
<1> please tell me how you can have democracy when church and state have not been separated, when violence has not been denounced, when the voters cannot read
<4> lapointe, and of course ecucation levels wasn't the point, democracy was.
<2> You dont need secularism to be democratic, not total secularism, you need respect for minorities.
<4> lapointe, what was the literacy level in the US when it started? Or, in Israel?
<2> Israel is de facto both a religious and a secular state.
<1> it was very high in israel
<2> The government is founded on both.
<4> lapointe, I doubt that.
<1> yes, but it is becoming more and more secular by the day
<1> tailor i don't lie about my country, if something ****s, i admit it
<2> The people are the government if anything the opposite.
<4> lapointe, but the people forming the government were educated in both examples.
<1> but most of our immigrants in the 40's were middle-cl*** europeans
<4> lapointe, you forget, people have to be lead.
<4> lapointe, that doesn't mean they were intellectuals.
<4> lapointe, or educated.
<1> atleast they could read, heh
<1> thats a start
<2> Even Barak the so called labour PM has since he left office spoke of the danger of arabs populating the country to a point where they have control some day, which is like People used to say in America what i used to call the Yellow scare.
<1> yes freetrade that is a very real threat
<4> lapointe, but getting back to the point, Iraq will have a democracy, believe it.
<1> we must maintain a jewish majority at all costs
<2> Israelis, Jews want Israel to be a Jewish state always.
<1> of course freetrade
<1> if it wasnt a jewish state, it wouldn't be Israel
<2> I dont care about that, But lets accept the same thing in some Arab democracies.
<2> They want to remain arab because they are majority muslim.. (Remain muslim I meant)
<4> lapointe, so what are you going to do to keep it a Jewish state?
<2> But with Arabs its a religion...
<2> Jews see it as a religion/ethnicity issue
<1> yes seeing judaism as an ethnicity is ignorant and stupid
<1> its a pride thing with some jews, very silly
<1> tailor we must give back certain settlements
<1> you need to remember than 1/6th of israel is already arab
<2> They are (Not all of course) self defining by their own beliefs and actions to maintain whatever it means to be a jew, Ethnically or Relgiously.
<2> Zionism was based on religion
<1> and their population growth rate far exceeds that of the jews
<1> not correct trade
<1> it was based on the persecution caused by believing in a certain religion
<1> many of the early, and later, zionists, were in fact secular
<2> Which is why in 1914 most jews disagreed with a seperate jewish state because they believed zionism was in the soul. so to speak.
<1> sure, the israeli population is also divided with the jerusalem issue
<2> And they didnt want anti semitic people to exile them to a Jewish state.
<2> they wanted the liberty to live anywhere in the world.
<1> yup
<2> WW2 kind of cinched the deal on a jewish state because of the horrors of ww2.
<2> But god, if you read the stuff ben Gurion and other founders of Israel wrote you would be shocked.
<1> yup
<1> i know what they wrote
<1> they were ***holes
<2> Ok..
<1> racists, supremists
<1> but things change once you gain power
<2> Then you know about them telling their recriters who were trying to move jews to Israel to not bring the concentration camp jews.
<2> To bring young and healthy ones, "We need people who can build a nation"
<1> menachem begin, for example, adamantly believed in an israel on two borders of the jordan, conquering all of the surrounding neighbors, etc
<1> and he ended up giving back all of sinai to egypt, an area thats bigger than israel itself
<2> they also said things like Stop recruiting so many north african jews and try to get the european ones.
<3> hi pil
<1> that i havn't heard of
<1> u got a source? this is interesting
<2> Which pragmatically and cold heartedly made sense.
<2> But I could never be so cruel
<1> its more than cruel, its going against the whole ideology of the nation heh
<2> Israel was a tough place, it was hard to feed people, IT was a lot of work to build a nation
<2> People lived in horrible conditions when they first migrated there
<1> sure
<2> some wrote letters home begging to be given money to be sent back to where they came from
<2> A lot of that history is ignored.
<1> there was a time where the amount of jews leaving israel exceeded the amount coming in
<2> But, My Only point germaine to this conversation is I can accept a primarily Islamic democracy with some secularism.
<2> By that i mean its influenced by Islam which the constitution is.
<6> etv
<6> etc
<2> Its an Islamic nation with minorities who have enumerated rights as citizens, lets just hope they are nor persecuted if this is ever settled.
<7> First tuesday of the month, 1:00 pm...test sirens
<1> im pretty sure they will be persecuted
<1> or atleast fight between them
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