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Comments:
<0> Let's get back to Fred and Gary. This road stuff is boring. >_>
<1> didn't you claim above that he drives only on private roads?
<2> We are well aware that capitalism allows some individuals to get a disproportionate amount of resources. The "common good" is a very different concept, I don't think you quite see what it is
<3> niv_ : culture
<3> Maloeran : define "common good"
<1> Maloeran: but we have the first welfar etheorem, which tells us that the common good is best served by a free market!
<1> Maloeran: we don't need to check its hypotheses! it doesn't matter that there are barriers to entry, that pollution stuff, and so forth!
<3> btw, every country in the 20th century which wasn't leaning towards a free-market economy collapsed within 50 yeras, except Cuba
<2> Maximizing the median level of financial resources for a population, not allow some individuals to receive disproportionate amounts
<1> farhan: every country in the 2nd century that had a free-market economy collapsed within two years.
<1> vacuously true statements are awesome, aren't they?
<2> Human greed and egocentricism really is the root of the problem
<1> no, the root of the problem is that the world contains people like farhan who believe that the first welfare theorem applies to the real world.
<1> why do i keep saying "first welfare theorem"? because farhan keeps using it.
<3> Maloeran : are you a communist?
<3> or socialist
<4> farhan: I'm a socialist.
<2> I recently refused to sell intelectual property a company wanted to put patents on, and it's going to end up in the public domain. Not everybody cares only about their own person, farhan
<2> I am a humanist
<3> niv_ : i used to be too
<1> farhan: and what changed your mind?
<5> christ you guys are still at it
<1> farhan: seriously, you haven't worked out the fred and gary thing. you should do that.
<3> evilgeek : i got offended by your comments
<1> farhan: good, that was the intention. you should still work it out.
<0> _Olympus: Honestly it's us against farhan.
<2> Probably by seeing how more wealthy he could be in a capitalistic system, how else are you going to exploit your fellow humans so efficiently
<5> heh
<3> i changed my mind because i argued against some people with the socialist standpoint and lost, miserably again and again
<3> and i began to see why socialism fails
<0> Oh the irony
<2> You aren't doing much better defending capitalism :)
<3> Maloeran : the only things you've said have been "human greed ruins it. humans are bad by nature!"
<4> maloeran: Capitalism perpetuates the lie that humans are motivated solely by greed. Although people living under capitalism are indoctrinated with that idea to the point that they can't fathom any other motive, or system.
<2> I typed a whole lot in the last 30 minutes, farhan, I'm sorry to realize that's all you read of it
<3> Maloeran : i actually didn't. i was too busy arguing with evilgeek
<2> True niv_, but humans do have a certain egocentric nature which the socio-economical model must appeal to
<3> i intentionally ignored everyone else
<1> you also ignored everything i said, dude.
<3> evilgeek : no, but i am now
<2> Communism might be an utopia on this aspect, but certain forms of socialism can be made to work
<1> i still don't get why you think you refuted any of my arguments.
<0> farhan: Which must make you the victor.
<3> if socialism is so good, why don't you guys live in a socailst country?
<1> farhan: depends on what you mean by "socialist".
<3> free-makret countries have outperformed the soclaist countries by far
<1> farhan: the USA is socialist.
<2> The Quebec province of Canada is fairly socialist
<3> evilgeek : adopting your government-regulation policies
<1> what free-market countries?
<3> evilgeek : America, for example
<3> we're much more right-wing than left
<1> that's not free-market.
<6> you can be right wing and socialist
<1> you are using "free-market" to mean something other than "free-market".
<4> Heh, "left-wing" in America = right-of-center in the rest of the world
<3> evilgeek : less government regulation?
<2> The united states have got some serious internal problems caused by companies harming the whole society
<5> true democratic socialism has never been tried. "communism" where select individuals remain in positions of great authority certainly doesn't qualify
<3> niv_ : lol, true :-)
<6> right wing and left-wing arent static labels anyways
<6> changed
<4> olympus: true
<6> in time
<0> communism != Communism
<4> olympus: I consider myself a democratic socialist.
<1> anyway, i'm sick of talking to farhan. he clearly doesn't understand logic.
<5> i consider myself a social democrat, leaning towards democratic socialist ;)
<1> (****ing dumb***.)
<4> olympus: I'm actually a member of DSA (www.dsausa.org)
<3> i actually vote democratic on the national level, but republican at the state/local
<5> neat
<4> olympus: Yeah, I'm not a social democrat because I want the workers to own and control the means of production.
<2> A market economy where companies would be owned and controlled by the people who make them live and prosper, where people would have the duty to be spend the money they are rewarded by for their contribution to society, would be a good step
<0> I voted for Microsoft in `04.
<4> olympus: social democrats and democratic socialists overlap alot though.
<7> _Olympus: not only are they still at it, but they ****ered you into it.
<3> Maloeran : i honestly agree with you 100%, but that's unrealistic
<5> niv_: social democracy is the way to go. whether as the ultimate goal or a stepping stone to socialism doesn't matter at this point
<3> Maloeran : people are motivated by rational self-interest
<2> The whole concept of being able to generate more money just because you own money is terribly harmful
<4> olympus: social democrats basically want to preserve the existing capitalist system, but manipulate it to simulate the effects of socialism, without giving the workers control of the meands of production
<5> i know niv_, i wouldn't call myself something without knowing what it means
<4> olympus: =)
<5> lollerskates
<4> loltown
<2> True farhan, it's an important factor. I think some forms of socialism are meant to combine the human egocentricism with the common good in a way that works
<2> "socialism" is so vague and misleading anyway
<4> olympus: Well.. I think in that situation, the capitalist system is still there, bubbling beneath the surface
<4> olympus: it just has a nice front on it
<5> of course, but it is a necessary stepping stone to socialism anyways
<2> farhan, there are many ways to implement what I suggested above
<5> my point was that it doesn't matter if it's a stepping stone or the ultimate goal. it's the right thing to do currently
<4> olympus: However, social democracy requires lots of taxes in order to fund social programs which become less necessary when the workers control the means of production
<2> What about a 10% tax on any owned and unspent amount of money per year? :)
<2> People will have to really contribute to the society to gain large amounts
<5> eventually niv_
<0> Maloeconomics
<3> Everyone read this...Lets say it costs $5 to make an apple, but the company sells it for $10. The guy who bought the apple values it at $20. Who won in this deal? Both! The consumer gained $10 in satisfaction and the producer gained $5 from the sale. That's the essense of the free-market
<4> olympus: I've been thinking lately that communism as marx envisioned it may not be necessary. Perhaps socialism will be good enough, but we've never really had it.
<0> farhan: But if there's only one company, why would he sell it at just $10?
<4> the whole dictatorship of the proletariat thing, stateless society
<3> Sartak : i'll be happy to talk to you over msgs :-)
<0> He could sell it at $20 because the consumer values it at $20.
<2> The few times true socialism could have been tried, they came under attack by the united states on all sides, sadly
<4> the stateless aspect of communism requires that the entire world be communist, or communism doesn't exist
<2> Though we now have the chance to see how things will evolve in south america, that should be an interesting experience
<0> Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather talk in a more public setting so others can contribute.
<3> Sartak : okay, so what? Before, the consumer gained $10 and the producer gained $5. Net gain of $15 to society. Now, the consumer gained $0 and the producer gained $15. Net gain of $15
<2> How does the consumer "gain" money from buying? Argh.
<4> maloeran: south america is quickly becoming the most pro-worker, marxian area of the world
<0> Except who cares about the corporation's profit margin? It's all going to the top dogs in the company who are filthy rich anyway.
<2> Yes niv_, I look forward to see how it will turn out
<4> maloeran: I think it's because of the constant economic imperialism and exploitation from the united states
<3> niv_ : yeah, the axis of good....look where that got them
<3> NO WHERE
<2> Yes clearly, united states corporations are drawing resources from all over the world
<4> the axis of good?
<3> yah
<3> between Lula De Silva, Castro and Chavez
<4> hmm
<4> and Morales?
<3> cuba has had 50 years of communism. people try to leave that country any way they can
<4> Bolivia just had a leftist victory with Evo Morales' election
<3> niv_ : what is pro-worker in intention ends up being anti-everyone in result
<2> Cuba has been under economic attack for the last 50 years too
<3> Maloeran : that's true too
<2> If Cuba had been left to live and prosper on its own, things might have been a little different, don't you think?
<0> Cuba is Communist not communist.
<3> Maloeran : economic isolation...which communists want though...
<2> Try to get your facts right please. The embargo killed the cuban economy, not socialism
<4> farhan: read the cuba truth project
<4> farhan: www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/
<3> Maloeran : embargos are anti-free trade. Make sense, right?
<4> I'm sick of debating cuba, I've done it too much lately.. so I just point people to that website
<3> Maloeran : so, why doesn't a communist country want regulation on trade then?
<4> cuban infant mortality = less than USA
<4> cuba doctors per capita = more than USA
<3> niv_ : i used to have pictures of Espernto Guevareo in my room
<4> cuban literacy rate = higher than USA
<2> Regulations and an embargo are.. hum, different concepts?
<3> i spelled that wrong
<3> niv_ : literacy rates are not the measure of progress
<4> farhan: you mean ernesto
<4> hahahahaah
<4> right, millionaires are
<3> yeah, i just said the constructed language
<0> I live in M***achusetts. I can't fathom that there are illiterate people in America, heh..
<3> niv_ : YES, they are :-)
<2> Healthcare and education of the m***es does not matter of course, a few billionaires do! :)
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